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There are 26 posts — by 14 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Rita Wilson at 2008 Apr 11 12:12 UTC

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Stephen Coleman		2008 Apr 11 06:07 UTC

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Apr 03 10:46 UTC Short link

Discussion is warming up at Connecting Bristol where Stephen Coleman,
after citing various e-democracy projects, says:

"In the case of ICELE it has been difficult to arrive at any judgments
because I simply don’t understand what they are aiming to achieve. Is
it new research and understanding? Or new tools to be used by
governments? Or critical debate about the merits and values of e-
participation? Perhaps someone can tell me what ICELE is for and why
considerable amounts of public money should be spent supporting it?"

Join in here
http://tinyurl.com/2c965t

One problem, I think, is that  ICELE (International Centre for Local e-
Democracy)  don't appear to engage online, so it is difficult to know
what they are doing. No blog, no presence in other people's spaces.
Has anyone seen them anywhere?

Understanding and practising online engagement seems very important
when Cabinet Minister Tom Watson says the future lies in engaging with
distributed online communities, not setting up more centralised
projects.
http://tinyurl.com/2h542y

From: Steven Clift Date: 2008 Apr 03 11:06 UTC Short link

At least in the UK, you are having a discussion about getting value for the
investment, which means that from time to time your government, the BBC, the
EU, etc. are actually investing in e-democracy.

I know the sums are small, but I'd be interested in seeing at least 10% as much
money "wasted" on e-democracy as has been dumped into one-way e-government
service projects with minimal use. On that mark, you'd have the resources to
learn many more lessons and make even more mistakes.

In terms of research however, I would love to see some real cost-benefit
analysis ... if a country had $100 million pounds to invest over 5 years to
preserve and reform "democracy" in the online era (broadly conceived not just
government to citizen democracy), what is the best investment. Or more
importantly, if a local council or a local BBC station, had 20K GBP a year to
invest in the community sector and 20K to invest for needs within their
democratic services, what is the most cost-effective service? (My guess on the
institutional side - a regularly produced "what's new" e-mail newsletter
combined with a personalized e-mail/RSS alert system like Google News Alerts
but instead covering local decision-making meetings/documents/news.)

Steven Clift

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Apr 03 11:31 UTC Short link

Hi Steven - all

Discussion warming up: Andy Williamson

"From where I am, the reality would appear to be that the very
creation of ICELE effectively side-lined local eDemocracy. I whole-
heartedly agree with Stephen (C) in that it seems politic to revist
the aims and objectives of the organisation and assess progress
against these."

http://tinyurl.com/2c965t

David


On 3 Apr 2008, at 11:04, Steven Clift wrote:

>
> At least in the UK, you are having a discussion about getting value
> for the investment, which means that from time to time your
> government, the BBC, the EU, etc. are actually investing in e-
> democracy.
>
> I know the sums are small, but I'd be interested in seeing at least
> 10% as much money "wasted" on e-democracy as has been dumped into
> one-way e-government service projects with minimal use. On that
> mark, you'd have the resources to learn many more lessons and make
> even more mistakes.
>
> In terms of research however, I would love to see some real cost-
> benefit analysis ... if a country had $100 million pounds to invest
> over 5 years to preserve and reform "democracy" in the online era
> (broadly conceived not just government to citizen democracy), what
> is the best investment. Or more importantly, if a local council or a
> local BBC station, had 20K GBP a year to invest in the community
> sector and 20K to invest for needs within their democratic services,
> what is the most cost-effective service? (My guess on the
> institutional side - a regularly produced "what's new" e-mail
> newsletter combined with a personalized e-mail/RSS alert system like
> Google News Alerts but instead covering local decision-making
> meetings/documents/news.)
>
> Steven Clift
>
> Member profile for Steven Clift:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stevenclift
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts on this topic here:
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>
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> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
> - http://dowire.org.

From: Simon Smith Date: 2008 Apr 03 14:37 UTC Short link

I'd love to see a real cost-benefit analysis too, Steven. The question is,
how do you do it?
Involve performed a useful literature review of attempts to evaluations of
public participation in policy-making, and concluded that "actual
cost-benefit analyses of participation are, as far as we have been able to
discern, virtually non-existent", largely due to the difficulty of
disaggregating intangible benefits like social capital and improved
relationships, or finding ways to taking into account the distribution of
costs and benefits, including to non-participants and society as a whole.
These can be very long-term, diffuse processes. See
http://www.involve.org.uk/civilrenewal
They call for some detailed economic appraisals of flagship projects which
would help develop criteria for analysing costs and benefits. Their focus
was not on eParticipation and eDemocracy, but the same difficulties surely
apply whether online or off.

Simon Smith

On 03/04/2008, Steven Clift <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>
> At least in the UK, you are having a discussion about getting value for
> the investment, which means that from time to time your government, the BBC,
> the EU, etc. are actually investing in e-democracy.
>
> I know the sums are small, but I'd be interested in seeing at least 10% as
> much money "wasted" on e-democracy as has been dumped into one-way
> e-government service projects with minimal use. On that mark, you'd have the
> resources to learn many more lessons and make even more mistakes.
>
> In terms of research however, I would love to see some real cost-benefit
> analysis ... if a country had $100 million pounds to invest over 5 years to
> preserve and reform "democracy" in the online era (broadly conceived not
> just government to citizen democracy), what is the best investment. Or more
> importantly, if a local council or a local BBC station, had 20K GBP a year
> to invest in the community sector and 20K to invest for needs within their
> democratic services, what is the most cost-effective service? (My guess on
> the institutional side - a regularly produced "what's new" e-mail newsletter
> combined with a personalized e-mail/RSS alert system like Google News Alerts
> but instead covering local decision-making meetings/documents/news.)
>
> Steven Clift
>
> Member profile for Steven Clift:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stevenclift
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
> posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/2Us5bhRdDhsgQoIoFgczci
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
> http://dowire.org.
>

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Apr 03 19:10 UTC Short link

Well, this icele thing has never done anything for us, and we are pretty
active in the field of local democratic participation.  It always looked
lame to me!
Jill

www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman


Hi Steven - all

Discussion warming up: Andy Williamson

"From where I am, the reality would appear to be that the very
creation of ICELE effectively side-lined local eDemocracy. I whole-
heartedly agree with Stephen (C) in that it seems politic to revist
the aims and objectives of the organisation and assess progress
against these."

http://tinyurl.com/2c965t

David


On 3 Apr 2008, at 11:04, Steven Clift wrote:

>
> At least in the UK, you are having a discussion about getting value
> for the investment, which means that from time to time your
> government, the BBC, the EU, etc. are actually investing in e-
> democracy.
>
> I know the sums are small, but I'd be interested in seeing at least
> 10% as much money "wasted" on e-democracy as has been dumped into
> one-way e-government service projects with minimal use. On that
> mark, you'd have the resources to learn many more lessons and make
> even more mistakes.
>
> In terms of research however, I would love to see some real cost-
> benefit analysis ... if a country had $100 million pounds to invest
> over 5 years to preserve and reform "democracy" in the online era
> (broadly conceived not just government to citizen democracy), what
> is the best investment. Or more importantly, if a local council or a
> local BBC station, had 20K GBP a year to invest in the community
> sector and 20K to invest for needs within their democratic services,
> what is the most cost-effective service? (My guess on the
> institutional side - a regularly produced "what's new" e-mail
> newsletter combined with a personalized e-mail/RSS alert system like
> Google News Alerts but instead covering local decision-making
> meetings/documents/news.)
>
> Steven Clift
>
> Member profile for Steven Clift:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stevenclift
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/2Us5bhRdDhsgQoIoFgczci
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
> - http://dowire.org.


Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid


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From: Ella Taylor-Smith Date: 2008 Apr 04 10:31 UTC Short link

Hi,

Well, maybe it would be more helpful if we said what we would like ICELE
to do.
(Though we might need to bear in mind the end of its core funding!)

I'll start with:
The first thing I need from ICELE is an archive of the info, docs and
links generated by the Local e-democracy national project:
http://www.edemocracy.gov.uk/
ICELE say that they haven't been able to wrest this URL from the
government.

I'd like to see this URL taken over by ICELE and UKIE (etc) and, as well
as including the appropriate archive of the Local e-democracy national
project, set up as a community of practice of e-democracy people in the
UK and Ireland -or at least as place where we can gather and store
documents. We don't seem to be short of places to discuss/comment and
adding a new one would probably further fracture the dialogue.

Over to you -what would you like ICELE to do?

-Ella

Ella Taylor-Smith

International Teledemocracy Centre
Napier University
10 Colinton Road
Edinburgh, EH10 5DT

Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
Email: <email obscured>

http://itc.napier.ac.uk


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From: Mary Reid Date: 2008 Apr 06 03:19 UTC Short link

You should be able to find all the National Project materials, plus loads
more, on www.icele.org.  This is exactly the archive that Ella is looking
for - and you are all welcome to provide further content.

In fact, do add your own details to the People Finder if you haven't done so
already - it's a directory of people and organisations in this field.

It is annoying that the www.edemocracy.gov.uk domain has not been made
available and that everything had to be moved to www.icele.org - the rivalry
between central government departments is beyond my simple understanding.

ICELE - and the National Project before it - has a relatively limited, but
significant, target audience, namely local authorities (hence 'Local'
eDemocracy). It is a tough audience because they tend to be very risk
averse, and also, of course, short of funding for anything that is not
deemed essential. And there are nearly 400 of them, all autonomous, so it is
not a homogeneous audience.

But local councils have got to be softened up and prepared for better
engagement - some of the pressure for better democratic practices will come
quite properly from citizens, but it's good if council officers and
councillors have understood the benefits for themselves.

One thing that ICELE has been tasked with is working with local authorities
through the regions to encourage them to use edemocracy tools. The work it
has done in the background with council officers and elected members has
probably been invisible to the general population except, of course, in the
gradual use of tools.

I think some of you would be surprised at where we have to start from - we
are still having to persuade some (usually older) councillors that making
their email address public might be a good move! It's a very different world
out there!

Mary




Mary Reid
020 8397 1396
www.maryreid.org.uk

From: Ella Taylor-Smith Date: 2008 Apr 06 16:25 UTC Short link

Hi Mary,
 yes -the content from the National Project is available on the ICELE site -but
it is scattered and integrated inot other content.
What we need is page which says what the project was about and links to the all
the outcomes -i.e. a page we can link to everytime we talk about the National
Project.

It's also good to hear directly from someone at ICELE within this discussion.
:-)

I appreciate the e-democracy URL is beyond ICELE's control, but I am looking
for ways to establish who owns it and that involves a certain aount of whinging
on my part.
-Ella

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Apr 06 17:07 UTC Short link

Hi Mary

I'm sure it is tough working with local authorities ... but I'm still
puzzled by why ICELE has (so far as I can see) no interactive online
presence, and failed to engage with the debate on the Bristol blog,
yet local politicians like yourself are great bloggers.

Can't citizens expect the e-democracy institutions they are funding to
emulate the best not the worst practice ... especially if they are
meant to be a 'centre of excellence'?

From: Mick Date: 2008 Apr 06 18:43 UTC Short link

As a worker in a local authority I don't believe its tough working with
most of us!

I do believe that if we are expected to use products they need to be of
reasonable quality, technically stable and affordable.

My experience of the ICELE products was that they didn't fit the first
two.

Another factor is that they need to be available and despite knowing of
its existance I've never found them easily available...

This applied to a lot of the e-government initiatives - they came along
too late and didn't offer anything people wanted at that late stage.

Mick

-----Original Message-----
From: David Wilcox <email obscured>]
Sent: 06 April 2008 18:07
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman

Hi Mary

I'm sure it is tough working with local authorities ... but I'm still
puzzled by why ICELE has (so far as I can see) no interactive online
presence, and failed to engage with the debate on the Bristol blog,
yet local politicians like yourself are great bloggers.

Can't citizens expect the e-democracy institutions they are funding to
emulate the best not the worst practice ... especially if they are
meant to be a 'centre of excellence'?

Daviud

On 5 Apr 2008, at 16:14, Mary Reid wrote:
> One thing that ICELE has been tasked with is working with local
> authorities
> through the regions to encourage them to use edemocracy tools. The
> work it
> has done in the background with council officers and elected members
> has
> probably been invisible to the general population except, of course,
> in the
> gradual use of tools.
>
> I think some of you would be surprised at where we have to start
> from - we
> are still having to persuade some (usually older) councillors that
> making
> their email address public might be a good move! It's a very
> different world
> out there!

Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid

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From: Ella Taylor-Smith Date: 2008 Apr 07 08:13 UTC Short link

Hi David

what is it you mean by an interactive website?
Do you think the ICELE site should have more WEB 2 tools or is there a
specific technology/facility you think it should include?

-Ella

Ella Taylor-Smith

International Teledemocracy Centre
Napier University
10 Colinton Road
Edinburgh, EH10 5DT

Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
Email: <email obscured>

http://itc.napier.ac.uk


This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not be read,
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University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering by the
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From: Dave Briggs Date: 2008 Apr 07 09:14 UTC Short link

Hi Ella

I wouldn't want to speak for David, but anything that allows for a
conversation would be nice, whether comments on pages, or aggregated stuff
that's on other sites but mentions ICELE.

I've started putting together a collaborative space at http://lgedem.org for
this discussion to happen in the open. Anyone can register and post to the
blog, commenters don't even have to do that. Will be an interesting
experiment, I think, in terms of just how transparent we can be in having
this conversation.

Dave

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Taylor-Smith, Ella <

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Apr 07 21:28 UTC Short link

Hi Ella

Dave has said it for me:-) Just some way in which we could interact
with the organisation. ICELE don't take in much by way of feeds from
elsewhere, don't post anything that can be commented, and don't engage
here, on the Bristol blog or anywhere that I can see. E-democracy
mute. I don't think it is about a particular tool, it is about joining
in with the rest of us. Or maybe we aren't Excellent enough to bother
with ...

David


On 7 Apr 2008, at 10:14, Dave Briggs wrote:
> Hi Ella
>
> I wouldn't want to speak for David, but anything that allows for a
> conversation would be nice, whether comments on pages, or aggregated
> stuff
> that's on other sites but mentions ICELE.
>
> I've started putting together a collaborative space at http://lgedem.org
>  for
> this discussion to happen in the open. Anyone can register and post
> to the
> blog, commenters don't even have to do that. Will be an interesting
> experiment, I think, in terms of just how transparent we can be in
> having
> this conversation.
>
> Dave
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Taylor-Smith, Ella <
> <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>> Hi David
>>
>> what is it you mean by an interactive website?
>> Do you think the ICELE site should have more WEB 2 tools or is
>> there a
>> specific technology/facility you think it should include?
>>
>> -Ella
>>
>> Ella Taylor-Smith
>>
>> International Teledemocracy Centre
>> Napier University
>> 10 Colinton Road
>> Edinburgh, EH10 5DT
>>
>> Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
>> Email: <email obscured>
>>
>> http://itc.napier.ac.uk
>>
>>
>> This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not
>> be read,
>> copied or disclosed to anyone else outwith the University without the
>> permission of the sender.
>> It is your responsibility to ensure that this message and any
>> attachments
>> are scanned for viruses or other defects. Napier University does
>> not accept
>> liability for any loss
>> or damage which may result from this email or any attachment, or for
>> errors or omissions arising after it was sent. Email is not a
>> secure medium.
>> Email entering the
>> University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering
>> by the
>> University.
>> Napier University is a registered Scottish charity. Registration
>> number
>> SC018373
>>
>> Member profile for Ella Taylor-Smith:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/smithella
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Briggs
> <email obscured> | http://davepress.net | 020 8133 8008 (Skype)
> 07516 450209
> (Mobile)
>
> Member profile for Dave Briggs:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/davebriggs
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
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From: alex stobart Date: 2008 Apr 08 17:56 UTC Short link

Who or what is ICELE ?

Does anyone know anything about them ?

Do they have an employee ? If so can they make themselves known to us on
this e-mail list ?

Or even a phone number as we all seem to be going around in circles.

Does anyone in central government sponsor them who reads this stuff ?

Alex


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman


> Hi Ella
>
> Dave has said it for me:-) Just some way in which we could interact
> with the organisation. ICELE don't take in much by way of feeds from
> elsewhere, don't post anything that can be commented, and don't engage
> here, on the Bristol blog or anywhere that I can see. E-democracy
> mute. I don't think it is about a particular tool, it is about joining
> in with the rest of us. Or maybe we aren't Excellent enough to bother
> with ...
>
> David
>
>
> On 7 Apr 2008, at 10:14, Dave Briggs wrote:
>> Hi Ella
>>
>> I wouldn't want to speak for David, but anything that allows for a
>> conversation would be nice, whether comments on pages, or aggregated
>> stuff
>> that's on other sites but mentions ICELE.
>>
>> I've started putting together a collaborative space at http://lgedem.org
>>  for
>> this discussion to happen in the open. Anyone can register and post
>> to the
>> blog, commenters don't even have to do that. Will be an interesting
>> experiment, I think, in terms of just how transparent we can be in
>> having
>> this conversation.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Taylor-Smith, Ella <
>> <email obscured>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David
>>>
>>> what is it you mean by an interactive website?
>>> Do you think the ICELE site should have more WEB 2 tools or is
>>> there a
>>> specific technology/facility you think it should include?
>>>
>>> -Ella
>>>
>>> Ella Taylor-Smith
>>>
>>> International Teledemocracy Centre
>>> Napier University
>>> 10 Colinton Road
>>> Edinburgh, EH10 5DT
>>>
>>> Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
>>> Email: <email obscured>
>>>
>>> http://itc.napier.ac.uk
>>>
>>>
>>> This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not
>>> be read,
>>> copied or disclosed to anyone else outwith the University without the
>>> permission of the sender.
>>> It is your responsibility to ensure that this message and any
>>> attachments
>>> are scanned for viruses or other defects. Napier University does
>>> not accept
>>> liability for any loss
>>> or damage which may result from this email or any attachment, or for
>>> errors or omissions arising after it was sent. Email is not a
>>> secure medium.
>>> Email entering the
>>> University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering
>>> by the
>>> University.
>>> Napier University is a registered Scottish charity. Registration
>>> number
>>> SC018373
>>>
>>> Member profile for Ella Taylor-Smith:
>>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/smithella
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>>
>>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>>> posts on this topic here:
>>> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/6i8vXJ74Ln6yY06qCIRwT5
>>>
>>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>>> email <email obscured>
>>> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Briggs
>> <email obscured> | http://davepress.net | 020 8133 8008 (Skype)
>> 07516 450209
>> (Mobile)
>>
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>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/davebriggs
>>
>>
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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Apr 08 18:10 UTC Short link

Hear hear!!  Let's hear.  It's the usual static stuff - being told what they
want you to hear.  Hardly e-participation, not at all e-democraxcy or an
example of how to.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Stobart" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman


Who or what is ICELE ?

Does anyone know anything about them ?

Do they have an employee ? If so can they make themselves known to us on
this e-mail list ?

Or even a phone number as we all seem to be going around in circles.

Does anyone in central government sponsor them who reads this stuff ?

Alex


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman


> Hi Ella
>
> Dave has said it for me:-) Just some way in which we could interact
> with the organisation. ICELE don't take in much by way of feeds from
> elsewhere, don't post anything that can be commented, and don't engage
> here, on the Bristol blog or anywhere that I can see. E-democracy
> mute. I don't think it is about a particular tool, it is about joining
> in with the rest of us. Or maybe we aren't Excellent enough to bother
> with ...
>
> David
>
>
> On 7 Apr 2008, at 10:14, Dave Briggs wrote:
>> Hi Ella
>>
>> I wouldn't want to speak for David, but anything that allows for a
>> conversation would be nice, whether comments on pages, or aggregated
>> stuff
>> that's on other sites but mentions ICELE.
>>
>> I've started putting together a collaborative space at http://lgedem.org
>>  for
>> this discussion to happen in the open. Anyone can register and post
>> to the
>> blog, commenters don't even have to do that. Will be an interesting
>> experiment, I think, in terms of just how transparent we can be in
>> having
>> this conversation.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Taylor-Smith, Ella <
>> <email obscured>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David
>>>
>>> what is it you mean by an interactive website?
>>> Do you think the ICELE site should have more WEB 2 tools or is
>>> there a
>>> specific technology/facility you think it should include?
>>>
>>> -Ella
>>>
>>> Ella Taylor-Smith
>>>
>>> International Teledemocracy Centre
>>> Napier University
>>> 10 Colinton Road
>>> Edinburgh, EH10 5DT
>>>
>>> Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
>>> Email: <email obscured>
>>>
>>> http://itc.napier.ac.uk
>>>
>>>
>>> This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not
>>> be read,
>>> copied or disclosed to anyone else outwith the University without the
>>> permission of the sender.
>>> It is your responsibility to ensure that this message and any
>>> attachments
>>> are scanned for viruses or other defects. Napier University does
>>> not accept
>>> liability for any loss
>>> or damage which may result from this email or any attachment, or for
>>> errors or omissions arising after it was sent. Email is not a
>>> secure medium.
>>> Email entering the
>>> University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering
>>> by the
>>> University.
>>> Napier University is a registered Scottish charity. Registration
>>> number
>>> SC018373
>>>
>>> Member profile for Ella Taylor-Smith:
>>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/smithella
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Briggs
>> <email obscured> | http://davepress.net | 020 8133 8008 (Skype)
>> 07516 450209
>> (Mobile)
>>
>> Member profile for Dave Briggs:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/davebriggs
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>>
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>> all posts on this topic here:
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>>
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>> email <email obscured>
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>
>
> Member profile for David Wilcox:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
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Member profile for alex stobart:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/alexstobart


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From: paul canning Date: 2008 Apr 08 21:01 UTC Short link

Public Sector Forums has been documenting the woes of ICELE for - oh - two
years? Some rather large numbers attached too. If you have a .gov.uk address
you can get past their content firewall for free >
http://www.publicsectorforums.co.uk/

Not. Good.

From: paul canning Date: 2008 Apr 08 21:03 UTC Short link

Mary:

"I think some of you would be surprised at where we have to start from"

Not me, I actually work in a council. and it's not just the 'old ones' and ....
fear ...

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Apr 09 06:18 UTC Short link

Precisely our experience, out here in the big frightening world of community
networks - fear, loathing and repression!
Best wishes
Jill  www.oncom.org.uk

From: Mick Date: 2008 Apr 09 07:23 UTC Short link

But some people in your/our communities have voted for them, so they
have a mandate, of sorts!

Who voted for you?

E-democracy and representation is great as long as it represents the
community (dangerous word, wasn't it Margaret T who said there's no such
thing as society?)

We've pulled together job descriptions for the leading councillors at my
authority, so they know the skills, behaviour and roles required.

Mick

-----Original Message-----
From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
Sent: 09 April 2008 07:19
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman

Precisely our experience, out here in the big frightening world of
community
networks - fear, loathing and repression!
Best wishes
Jill  www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul canning" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman

Mary:

"I think some of you would be surprised at where we have to start from"

Not me, I actually work in a council. and it's not just the 'old ones'
and
.... fear ...

Member profile for paul canning:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/paulcanning

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No virus found in this incoming message.
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From: Tom Steinberg Date: 2008 Apr 09 08:42 UTC Short link

I got asked to be on the board of ICELE some time ago. As far as I
know they're currently in a sort of limbo phase as their initial
funding has come to an end, but there's some sort of desire from CLG
not just to let everything that they've done so far drop/stop. I know
nothing more than that I'm afraid.

Tom

On 09/04/2008, Mick Phythian <email obscured>> wrote:
> But some people in your/our communities have voted for them, so they
>  have a mandate, of sorts!
>
>  Who voted for you?
>
>  E-democracy and representation is great as long as it represents the
>  community (dangerous word, wasn't it Margaret T who said there's no such
>  thing as society?)
>
>  We've pulled together job descriptions for the leading councillors at my
>  authority, so they know the skills, behaviour and roles required.
>
>  Mick
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
>  Sent: 09 April 2008 07:19
>  To: <email obscured>
>
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman
>
>
>  Precisely our experience, out here in the big frightening world of
>  community
>  networks - fear, loathing and repression!
>  Best wishes
>  Jill  www.oncom.org.uk
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "paul canning" <email obscured>>
>  To: <email obscured>>
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:06 PM
>  Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman
>
>
>  Mary:
>
>  "I think some of you would be surprised at where we have to start from"
>
>  Not me, I actually work in a council. and it's not just the 'old ones'
>  and
>  .... fear ...
>
>
>  Member profile for paul canning:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/paulcanning
>
>
>  -----------------------------------------
>
>  Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>
>  Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>  posts
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>
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>
>
>  -----------------------------------------
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
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>  Checked by AVG.
>
> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date:
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>
>
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>  http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian
>
>
>
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--
Director, mySociety
07811 082158
Newest site: www.WhatDoTheyKnow.com

From: Rita Wilson Date: 2008 Apr 10 10:46 UTC Short link

Having been on holiday for a few days I was surprised to come back to lots of
speculation about ICELE. First of all I would like to say that I am more than
happy to provide information regarding what ICELE has been achieving and there
is nothing hidden about our activities. But we are doers not talkers,
delivering a programme to make a difference in how local authorities use tools
and technology to move from consultation to participation.

Far from not being well known we have around 1800 subscribers to our newsletter
and we get over 2700 visitors to our website each month. Whilst councils like
Bristol are well advanced in engaging with their communities the reality is
that most local authorities, and their Elected Members, dont know how  to get
started, what works and specifically how to involve their communities actively
in the decision making process. This is the area where we are active  from
running events regionally like the work we have done with North East Connects
on the Changing Role of the Frontline Councillor Programme, to capturing and
disseminating good practice such as the event we ran with Bristol on
ePetitioning, to working with individual local authorities on development
programmes, often for Elected Members like the recent London Borough of Bromley
event

We are not about products although we have developed and marketed VOICE
effectively (see the launch of Birmingham VOICE) and we have specifically
designed a front-end for a blogging platform that gets Elected Members blogging
in easy steps  Bloginabox. The work on blogging came from our recognition of a
gap in guidance for Elected Members  easy to criticise them but who is
providing support for them if not us?

Our prime role has been to act as a knowledge sharing hub, not just at local
level but nationally and internationally as well  hence we are part of two
European Commission funded projects and our work with the International
Symposium. Our reach is wide, we can be hosting international exchanges at the
same time as taking the daily enquiries from authorities who have nowhere else
to go when looking at what community empowerment is all about.

Yes we promote the use of social media and have our Facebook site, but it isnt
about what we do but about what we enable others to do that we should be judged
some of which will take years to fully mature. We dont know what our future is
but our passion to make a difference to how local authorities engage remains.
Rita - Director ICELE

From: Stephen Coleman Date: 2008 Apr 11 06:07 UTC Short link

Just a few follow-up questions:

1. In what sense is ICELE promoting a 'move from consultation to
participation'?

2. How much did the development and marketing of VOICE cost? What was it
supposed to achieve? Who uses it? Has it been evaluated at any stage? Is there
any evidence that this supports the 'move from consultation to participation'?

3. How many councillors use 'Bloginabox'? Has this use been evaluated? Is there
any evidence that this supports the 'move from consultation to participation'?

4. What are the two European Commission projects? What is ICELE's role in them?

5. Which specific ICELE objectives 'will take years to fully mature' and how
will we know when that has happened?

Stephen Coleman,
Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director of the Centre for Digital
Citizenship,
Institute of Communications Studies,
University of Leeds

________________________________

From: Rita Wilson <email obscured>]
Sent: Thu 10-Apr-08 11:48 AM
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman

Having been on holiday for a few days I was surprised to come back to lots of
speculation about ICELE. First of all I would like to say that I am more than
happy to provide information regarding what ICELE has been achieving and there
is nothing hidden about our activities. But we are doers not talkers,
delivering a programme to make a difference in how local authorities use tools
and technology to move from consultation to participation.

Far from not being well known we have around 1800 subscribers to our newsletter
and we get over 2700 visitors to our website each month. Whilst councils like
Bristol are well advanced in engaging with their communities the reality is
that most local authorities, and their Elected Members, dont know how  to get
started, what works and specifically how to involve their communities actively
in the decision making process. This is the area where we are active  from
running events regionally like the work we have done with North East Connects
on the Changing Role of the Frontline Councillor Programme, to capturing and
disseminating good practice such as the event we ran with Bristol on
ePetitioning, to working with individual local authorities on development
programmes, often for Elected Members like the recent London Borough of Bromley
event

We are not about products although we have developed and marketed VOICE
effectively (see the launch of Birmingham VOICE) and we have specifically
designed a front-end for a blogging platform that gets Elected Members blogging
in easy steps  Bloginabox. The work on blogging came from our recognition of a
gap in guidance for Elected Members  easy to criticise them but who is
providing support for them if not us?

Our prime role has been to act as a knowledge sharing hub, not just at local
level but nationally and internationally as well  hence we are part of two
European Commission funded projects and our work with the International
Symposium. Our reach is wide, we can be hosting international exchanges at the
same time as taking the daily enquiries from authorities who have nowhere else
to go when looking at what community empowerment is all about.

Yes we promote the use of social media and have our Facebook site, but it isnt
about what we do but about what we enable others to do that we should be judged
some of which will take years to fully mature. We dont know what our future is
but our passion to make a difference to how local authorities engage remains.
Rita - Director ICELE

Member profile for Rita Wilson:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/ritawilson

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The following file was added to this topic:

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From: Ella Taylor-Smith Date: 2008 Apr 11 08:02 UTC Short link

Hi,
 quite a lot of the talk on this thread about ICELE not being involved
in conversations online continued after Mary Reid had posted to the
thread!
Mary is of course on the board of ICELE

and is also elected as Liberal Democrat Councillor for Chessington North
& Hook, in the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames
http://www.maryreid.org.uk/

Yes, it would be useful to have public space for comments on the
information ICELE has produced and collated, but I have never had any
problem communicating with them as an organisation. If I have any
comments (e.g. on some of the material on the website or something I
can't find) I use one of the emails on the website and someone replies.
Of course, this isn't a public communication - but not all communication
needs an audience to be accessible or authentic.

-Ella

Ella Taylor-Smith

International Teledemocracy Centre
Napier University
10 Colinton Road
Edinburgh, EH10 5DT

Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
Email: <email obscured>

http://itc.napier.ac.uk


This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not be read,
copied or disclosed to anyone else outwith the University without the
permission of the sender.
It is your responsibility to ensure that this message and any attachments are
scanned for viruses or other defects. Napier University does not accept
liability for any loss
or damage which may result from this email or any attachment, or for errors or
omissions arising after it was sent. Email is not a secure medium. Email
entering the
University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering by the
University.
Napier University is a registered Scottish charity. Registration number
SC018373

From: Ian Cuddy Date: 2008 Apr 11 10:09 UTC Short link

Rita Wilson <email obscured> said:

"The work on blogging came from our recognition of a gap in guidance for
Elected Members  easy to criticise them but who is providing support for
them if not us?"

Looking ahead I would say the new, high-profile Regional Improvement and
Efficiency Partnerships (RIEPS)  which recently received £185m of funding,
are now better suited to deliver this support role than ICELE.

http://www.lga.gov.uk/lga/core/page.do?pageId=18437

The RIEPS (for list members who are not aware of them) launched this month
to much fanfare and are designed to act as council's 'first port of call'
on delivering the priority outcomes for local government, as set out in the
Local Govt White Paper & Comprehensive Spending Review, over the next three
years.

They have a specific remit in this to support councils in promoting the
Government's 'community engagement and empowerment' agenda - covering eg
improving approaches to consultation, local decision-making, supporting
councillors, giving neighbourhoods a strong voice etc. Clearly
'e-participation' can be separated from this work.

The RIEPs have recently published three-year comprehensive strategic action
plans for each region in England, backed up by lots of new government
funding. All activities by RIEP are supposed to link into other, wider
government agendas eg 'sustainable communities', 'quality of life' local
area agreements, local strategic partnerships etc. There is also a
national, central body co-ordinating the work of the RIEPs with all the
necessary & important parties represented, holding the RIEPs to account.

I understand for example ICELE is working with West Midlands RIEP promote
ePetitioning to councils in the region. I don't see any particular reason
why (and given the huge political support they have) RIEPs are not best
placed to act as 'first port of call' for e-participation activity for
their member local authorities - it makes far more sense to mainstream
e-participation into their work rather than funding a separate external
body who isn't a direct stakeholder.

From: Ian Cuddy Date: 2008 Apr 11 10:32 UTC Short link

Sorry it's Friday, the text below should read:
'Clearly 'e-participation' canNOT be separated from this work' - slight
difference in meaning.

Ian

Original Message:

-----------------
From: <email obscured> <email obscured>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:32:28 -0400
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] Is it worth funding ICELE, asks Coleman

Rita Wilson <email obscured> said:

"The work on blogging came from our recognition of a gap in guidance for
Elected Members  easy to criticise them but who is providing support for
them if not us?"

Looking ahead I would say the new, high-profile Regional Improvement and
Efficiency Partnerships (RIEPS)  which recently received Â£185m of funding,
are now better suited to deliver this support role than ICELE.

http://www.lga.gov.uk/lga/core/page.do?pageId=18437

The RIEPS (for list members who are not aware of them) launched this month
to much fanfare and are designed to act as council's 'first port of call'
on delivering the priority outcomes for local government, as set out in the
Local Govt White Paper & Comprehensive Spending Review, over the next three
years.

They have a specific remit in this to support councils in promoting the
Government's 'community engagement and empowerment' agenda - covering eg
improving approaches to consultation, local decision-making, supporting
councillors, giving neighbourhoods a strong voice etc. Clearly
'e-participation' can be separated from this work.

The RIEPs have recently published three-year comprehensive strategic action
plans for each region in England, backed up by lots of new government
funding. All activities by RIEP are supposed to link into other, wider
government agendas eg 'sustainable communities', 'quality of life' local
area agreements, local strategic partnerships etc. There is also a
national, central body co-ordinating the work of the RIEPs with all the
necessary & important parties represented, holding the RIEPs to account.

I understand for example ICELE is working with West Midlands RIEP promote
ePetitioning to councils in the region. I don't see any particular reason
why (and given the huge political support they have) RIEPs are not best
placed to act as 'first port of call' for e-participation activity for
their member local authorities - it makes far more sense to mainstream
e-participation into their work rather than funding a separate external
body who isn't a direct stakeholder.

Ian

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From: Rita Wilson Date: 2008 Apr 11 12:12 UTC Short link

Ive set out below some summary points on ICELE in response to Stephens
questions but I dont think this is the right place to write screeds given you
have already heard from both me and Mary Reid (one of our Board members as Ella
kindly pointed out).

1. Primarily ICELE acts as a knowledge sharing hub, working with individuals,
authorities, regions and different local authority groupings from Elected
Members to Performance and Policy Managers to raise awareness of tools and
techniques. I mentioned the event with Bristol on ePetitioning; we are planning
a similar event with London Connects on 11th June at Kingston, demonstrating
how petitioning systems can be integrated into the decision-making processes.
This is an example of when we see consultation become participation.

2. I am sure you are aware that ICELE wasnt around when VOICE was initially
developed so I do not know the answer to some of your questions. What I can say
is that we have refined it, marketed it as part of the ICELE programme and
found a wide range of interest which means it breaks even on cost. Do look at
the Birmingham VOICE project if you want to see the difference in makes in the
community. My own Council is using it widely from being a tool to get Parish
Councils online to providing a website for a project on anti-social behaviour
with young people. Just last month we signed up the London Communities Policing
Partnership. And yes, our Board has received an independent evaluation.

3. Bloginabox is a new development and we are working on our launch plan now
but it builds on our work with ReadMyDay where we are already supporting
approximately 150 users. Our prime target is Elected Members  blogging is a way
of strengthening their engagement with the communities they represent and this
work has been led by the Elected Members on our Board.

Id like to pick up here on Ian Cuddys comments about the Regional Improvement
and Efficiency Partnerships as they are already key partners for ICELE on
dissemination. If you go to the North East Connects website youll see how this
works in practice, we provide the specialist support to enable the regions to
deliver programmes, many specifically for Elected Members.

4. We are partners currently in the delivery of two European projects. The
MOMENTUM project is led by the University of Athens and is a support action
project on digital legislation making within the eParticipation framework. The
second project is the PEPNET project led by TuTech in Hamburg and is setting up
a thematic network as part of the Competitiveness Innovation Framework. We have
recently received 2 further invitations to join European Partnerships bidding
for EU funding.

5.  Returning to my first point, a key objective for ICELE is to concentrate on
knowledge-sharing, providing a hub for advising and supporting local
authorities, bringing together vision, leading technologies and good practice
across boundaries. We can report on the number of authorities we've worked
with, programmes delivered etc but I do not  have the answer as to when having
100 Councillors in a room to discuss eDemocracy starts to make a difference. I
do know, however, that if we werent there enabling that debate to happen and
raising awareness, the journey will struggle to even begin.

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