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There are 62 posts — by 19 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by David Wilcox at 2008 Apr 21 22:40 UTC

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From	File	Date
Stephen Coleman		2008 Feb 18 17:35 UTC

From: Steven Clift Date: 2008 Feb 18 17:04 UTC Short link

Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related to ...


From:
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1

Regional newspapers’ fury at BBC local web plan

28 January 2008

By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig

The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning a network
of 60 ultra-local websites.

Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October following a huge
backlash from regional newspapers that feared the service would stifle their
own multimedia online efforts.

Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network of
websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping technology.

Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at Coventry
University that new service would involve text, audio and video news which
could be navigated using a map of a specified region.

...

The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with symbols
providing users with the main means of navigating between sections.

“E-democracy” will also enable people to research politicians and political
parties via more interactive and informative means.

Griffee said: “It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC Trust and
seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how local is important to
them. It brings everything together in one place.”

User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the proposed new
network – which could be narrowed down by the user to the level of a town.


....


With my E-Democracy.Org hat on, I'd love to find a UK partner that could get
our self-governing/volunteer-led in front of communities all around the UK.
While Upmystreet or Craiglist prove there is some value in top-down technical
infrastructures defining geographical exchange, sustained interactive
"e-democracy" among citizens isn't one of them. However, if you combine high
traffic geographical navigation/news/information use with bottom-up community
ownership supporting the public two-way exchange, I think you might have
something quite powerful.

Steven Clift
E-Democracy.Org

From: Stephen Coleman Date: 2008 Feb 18 17:35 UTC Short link

The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a number of
other exciting things along these lines in the coming months. The Action
network (previously iCan) was always meant to be an experiment. The BBC is
right to learn from experiments and change course if that's what seems right.
Stephen

Stephen Coleman
Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for Digital
Citizenship,
Institute for Communications Studies,
University of Leeds

________________________________

From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
To: <email obscured>
Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related to ...

From:
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1

Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan

28 January 2008

By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig

The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning a network
of 60 ultra-local websites.

Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October following a huge
backlash from regional newspapers that feared the service would stifle their
own multimedia online efforts.

Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network of
websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping technology.

Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at Coventry
University that new service would involve text, audio and video news which
could be navigated using a map of a specified region.

...

The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with symbols
providing users with the main means of navigating between sections.

"E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and political
parties via more interactive and informative means.

Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC Trust and
seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how local is important to
them. It brings everything together in one place."

User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the proposed new
network - which could be narrowed down by the user to the level of a town.

....

With my E-Democracy.Org hat on, I'd love to find a UK partner that could get
our self-governing/volunteer-led in front of communities all around the UK.
While Upmystreet or Craiglist prove there is some value in top-down technical
infrastructures defining geographical exchange, sustained interactive
"e-democracy" among citizens isn't one of them. However, if you combine high
traffic geographical navigation/news/information use with bottom-up community
ownership supporting the public two-way exchange, I think you might have
something quite powerful.

Steven Clift
E-Democracy.Org

Member profile for Steven Clift:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stevenclift

-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie

Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts on
this topic here:
http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/5cqCiz7QYX5NrCujWV6ahE

For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
email <email obscured>
with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.

UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
http://dowire.org <http://dowire.org/> .

The following file was added to this topic:

(application/ms-tnef, 6KB)

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 18 18:06 UTC Short link

Dear Stephen,

  Just to inform you that myverdict.net already has a worldwide, local to
international, e-democracy site, covering over 25,000 administrative divisions
in every inhabited country. The UK site, for example has Democracy, Article,
News and Forum sections, covering the UK, the four Home Countries, Counties and
Local Authority Districts or Unitary Authorities.

  A formal request has been put to Sefton Council to enable the site to be used
as a tool to enhance consultation with the community, by informing the
residents of Sefton of it's existence and potential for the democratic process.

  You might wish to inform the student body of it's existence.

  Best Regards

  Roy Daine
  myverdict.net

Stephen Coleman <email obscured>> wrote:
  The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a number
of other exciting things along these lines in the coming months. The Action
network (previously iCan) was always meant to be an experiment. The BBC is
right to learn from experiments and change course if that's what seems right.
Stephen

Stephen Coleman
Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for Digital
Citizenship,
Institute for Communications Studies,
University of Leeds

________________________________

From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
To: <email obscured>
Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related to ...

From:
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1

Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan

28 January 2008

By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig

The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning a network
of 60 ultra-local websites.

Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October following a huge
backlash from regional newspapers that feared the service would stifle their
own multimedia online efforts.

Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network of
websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping technology.

Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at Coventry
University that new service would involve text, audio and video news which
could be navigated using a map of a specified region.

...

The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with symbols
providing users with the main means of navigating between sections.

"E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and political
parties via more interactive and informative means.

Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC Trust and
seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how local is important to
them. It brings everything together in one place."

User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the proposed new
network - which could be narrowed down by the user to the level of a town.

....

With my E-Democracy.Org hat on, I'd love to find a UK partner that could get
our self-governing/volunteer-led in front of communities all around the UK.
While Upmystreet or Craiglist prove there is some value in top-down technical
infrastructures defining geographical exchange, sustained interactive
"e-democracy" among citizens isn't one of them. However, if you combine high
traffic geographical navigation/news/information use with bottom-up community
ownership supporting the public two-way exchange, I think you might have
something quite powerful.

Steven Clift
E-Democracy.Org

Member profile for Steven Clift:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stevenclift

-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie

Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts on
this topic here:
http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/5cqCiz7QYX5NrCujWV6ahE

For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
email <email obscured>
with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.

UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
http://dowire.org .

UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange now contains the following file

http://groups.dowire.org/r/file/1000150-2008-02-18T173542Z
Name:
Tags: "attachment"
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 6KB

Member profile for Stephen Coleman:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stephencoleman

-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie

Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts on
this topic here:
http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/7FZi4XiusSGOTnAfd6n4Qb

For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
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UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
http://dowire.org.

Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Feb 19 11:46 UTC Short link

Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.

I've followed up with this piece
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
(or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.

My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
this field. Anyone have more info?

Regards
David


On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:

> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
> course if that's what seems right.
> Stephen
>
> Stephen Coleman
> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
> Digital Citizenship,
> Institute for Communications Studies,
> University of Leeds
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>
>
> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
> to ...
>
>
> From:
> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>
> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>
> 28 January 2008
>
> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>
> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>
> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>
> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
> technology.
>
> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>
> ...
>
> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
> sections.
>
> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>
> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
> place."
>
> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
> the level of a town.
>

From: Stephen Coleman Date: 2008 Feb 19 12:32 UTC Short link

I agree with you, David, that communication from the BBC about its
digital-democracy plans tends to be less than open or participatory.
There should be at least one member of the BBC Trust with a specific
remit to speak on this issue. As the UK Government has has had to learn
(slowly, slowly), exercises in inclusive, participatory democracy that
are conceived and managed in closed rooms tend not to be trusted. My own
sense is that the BBC is going to come up with some worthwhile ideas -
and is much better placed to do so than governments, national or local.
Stephen

Stephen Coleman
Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for Digital
Citizenship,
Institute for Communications Studies,
University of Leeds


-----Original Message-----
From: David Wilcox <email obscured>]
Sent: 19 February 2008 11:37
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.

I've followed up with this piece
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
(or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.

My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
this field. Anyone have more info?

Regards
David


On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:

> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
> course if that's what seems right.
> Stephen
>
> Stephen Coleman
> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
> Digital Citizenship,
> Institute for Communications Studies,
> University of Leeds
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>
>
> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
> to ...
>
>
> From:
>
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=
1
>
> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>
> 28 January 2008
>
> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>
> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>
> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>
> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
> technology.
>
> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>
> ...
>
> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
> sections.
>
> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>
> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
> place."
>
> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
> the level of a town.
>


Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid


-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie

Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
posts on this topic here:
http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM

For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
email <email obscured>
with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.

UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
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From: alex stobart Date: 2008 Feb 19 18:57 UTC Short link

David

There is a lady who blogs here

http://lizziejackson.com/about/

It says on her " about Lizzie " page

Lizzie set up and managed the BBC’s online community between 1997-2002,
creating the management and training systems, leading a team of 22 producers
and assistant producers and overseeing the devolution of the online
community management to the production Divisions in 2002.  She was
responsible for the BBC’s Internet safety initiatives from 2003-2007,
assisting BBC Children’s with the facilitation of their online communities
and user-generated content and the development of editorial policy in that
area

Perhaps whoever is really interested in the subject should comment on her
blog, or ask if she knows current BBC policy makers ?

Regards

Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy


> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>
> I've followed up with this piece
> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>
> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
> (or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
> the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
> don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
> the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.
>
> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
> this field. Anyone have more info?
>
> Regards
> David
>
>
> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>
>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
>> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>> course if that's what seems right.
>> Stephen
>>
>> Stephen Coleman
>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>> Digital Citizenship,
>> Institute for Communications Studies,
>> University of Leeds
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>> to ...
>>
>>
>> From:
>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>>
>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>
>> 28 January 2008
>>
>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>
>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
>> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>
>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>
>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>> technology.
>>
>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>> sections.
>>
>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>
>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
>> place."
>>
>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>> the level of a town.
>>
>
>
> Member profile for David Wilcox:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
> posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
> http://dowire.org.
>

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 20 07:47 UTC Short link

Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because this
could easily be country-wide, across every community?  The great thing is
that it groups what the government likes to call "natural communities" into
boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the geographical local
context, plus communities can have their own interest groups too, to suit
themselves and the area where they live.  It is iinfinitely adaptable as a
model and we know it works as it's grown, ground up and organically, over
ten years.  There is certainly nothing centralised or top down about it and
the sheer numbers of people contributing the the websites in the network
keep it independent.
Best wishes
Jill

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy


Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.

I've followed up with this piece
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
(or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.

My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
this field. Anyone have more info?

Regards
David


On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:

> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
> course if that's what seems right.
> Stephen
>
> Stephen Coleman
> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
> Digital Citizenship,
> Institute for Communications Studies,
> University of Leeds
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>
>
> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
> to ...
>
>
> From:
> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>
> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>
> 28 January 2008
>
> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>
> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>
> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>
> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
> technology.
>
> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>
> ...
>
> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
> sections.
>
> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>
> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
> place."
>
> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
> the level of a town.
>


Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid


-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie

Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts
on this topic here:
http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM

For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
email <email obscured>
with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.

UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
http://dowire.org.

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Feb 20 10:39 UTC Short link

Alex - thanks, and yes I know Lizzie well. She worked with me on the
BBC Trust blogging project
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2007/10/reaching-out--1.html

... and is a stalwart of the emint online community managers list
(which is worth joining)
http://www.emint.org.uk/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/e-mint/

Probably the best place to comment on BBC plans (as well as my blog of
course:-) is the BBC Internet blog
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/02/digital_democracy.html

... and for anyone who has a blog to do their own piece, adding a
del.icio.us tag of bbccouk. It will then show up in the sidebar of the
BBC Internet blog (as mine did)

Anyone got other ideas about how to create more of a public discussion
of this topic? I know from private emails that the analysis in my
original post is correct.
Here's the link for anyone who missed it
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

The key issue as I see it: how to get the BBC and BBC Trust to have a
serious consultation/engagement on their plans to support local
democracy and community action. The event in Coventry was shown a well-
developed prototype. It may be great - but shouldn't we see it?

David



On 19 Feb 2008, at 18:57, Alex Stobart wrote:

> David
>
> There is a lady who blogs here
>
> http://lizziejackson.com/about/
>
> It says on her " about Lizzie " page
>
> Lizzie set up and managed the BBC’s online community between
> 1997-2002,
> creating the management and training systems, leading a team of 22
> producers
> and assistant producers and overseeing the devolution of the online
> community management to the production Divisions in 2002.  She was
> responsible for the BBC’s Internet safety initiatives from 2003-2007,
> assisting BBC Children’s with the facilitation of their online
> communities
> and user-generated content and the development of editorial policy
> in that
> area
>
> Perhaps whoever is really interested in the subject should comment
> on her
> blog, or ask if she knows current BBC policy makers ?
>
> Regards
>
> Alex
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
> To: <email obscured>>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>>
>> I've followed up with this piece
>> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>>
>> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
>> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>> (or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>> the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
>> don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
>> the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.
>>
>> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
>> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>> this field. Anyone have more info?
>>
>> Regards
>> David
>>
>>
>> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>>
>>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
>>> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>>> course if that's what seems right.
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>> Stephen Coleman
>>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>>> Digital Citizenship,
>>> Institute for Communications Studies,
>>> University of Leeds
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>>> To: <email obscured>
>>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>>> to ...
>>>
>>>
>>> From:
>>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>>>
>>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>>
>>> 28 January 2008
>>>
>>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>>
>>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
>>> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>>
>>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>>
>>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>>> technology.
>>>
>>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>>> region.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>>> sections.
>>>
>>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>>
>>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>>> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
>>> place."
>>>
>>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>>> the level of a town.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for David Wilcox:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts on this topic here:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM
>>
>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>> email <email obscured>
>> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>
>
>
> Member profile for alex stobart:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/alexstobart
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/7HhYCVibS2kzetcrcUbuLX
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
> - http://dowire.org.

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Feb 20 11:46 UTC Short link

Jill - I think you are absolutely right, and the BBC should help
support and join up local initiatives, not potentially shadow them out
with a portal approach.

Nick Reynolds, editor of he BBC Internet blog, has now joined in, and
I've pointed him at oncom over here (see comments)
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

David


On 20 Feb 2008, at 07:40, Jill Sanders wrote:

> Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
> this
> could easily be country-wide, across every community?  The great
> thing is
> that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
> communities" into
> boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the geographical
> local
> context, plus communities can have their own interest groups too, to
> suit
> themselves and the area where they live.  It is iinfinitely
> adaptable as a
> model and we know it works as it's grown, ground up and organically,
> over
> ten years.  There is certainly nothing centralised or top down about
> it and
> the sheer numbers of people contributing the the websites in the
> network
> keep it independent.
> Best wishes
> Jill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
> To: <email obscured>>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>
> I've followed up with this piece
> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>
> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
> (or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
> the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
> don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
> the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.
>
> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
> this field. Anyone have more info?
>
> Regards
> David
>
>
> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>
>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
>> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>> course if that's what seems right.
>> Stephen
>>
>> Stephen Coleman
>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>> Digital Citizenship,
>> Institute for Communications Studies,
>> University of Leeds
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>> to ...
>>
>>
>> From:
>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>>
>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>
>> 28 January 2008
>>
>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>
>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
>> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>
>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>
>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>> technology.
>>
>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>> region.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>> sections.
>>
>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>
>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
>> place."
>>
>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>> the level of a town.
>>
>
>
> Member profile for David Wilcox:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts
> on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
> http://dowire.org.
>
>
>
> Member profile for Jill Sanders:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/1trUCVM5RQhgxzKhaMjRNO
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
> - http://dowire.org.

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 20 12:43 UTC Short link

Hi Jill,

  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.

  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.

  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net

  Best of luck with oncom.

  Roy Daine

Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because this
could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great thing is
that it groups what the government likes to call "natural communities" into
boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the geographical local
context, plus communities can have their own interest groups too, to suit
themselves and the area where they live. It is iinfinitely adaptable as a
model and we know it works as it's grown, ground up and organically, over
ten years. There is certainly nothing centralised or top down about it and
the sheer numbers of people contributing the the websites in the network
keep it independent.
Best wishes
Jill

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy


Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.

I've followed up with this piece
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
(or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
the BBC Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.

My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
this field. Anyone have more info?

Regards
David


On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:

> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
> course if that's what seems right.
> Stephen
>
> Stephen Coleman
> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
> Digital Citizenship,
> Institute for Communications Studies,
> University of Leeds
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>
>
> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
> to ...
>
>
> From:
> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>
> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>
> 28 January 2008
>
> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>
> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>
> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>
> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
> technology.
>
> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>
> ...
>
> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
> sections.
>
> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>
> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
> place."
>
> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
> the level of a town.
>


Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid


-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts
on this topic here:
http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM

For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
email <email obscured>
with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.

UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
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Member profile for Jill Sanders:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill


-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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this topic here:
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Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.

From: Tom Steinberg Date: 2008 Feb 20 17:06 UTC Short link

Hi All,

Just to say that I was at a BBC meeting on this a couple of days ago.
I've let them know that this thread and community exists, and that
they should be reaching out here.

I didn't hear anyone talking about the ultra local sites though, so I
guess they're probably happening in some other part of the Beast.

best,

Tom

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Stephen Coleman <email obscured>>
wrote:

> I agree with you, David, that communication from the BBC about its
>  digital-democracy plans tends to be less than open or participatory.
>  There should be at least one member of the BBC Trust with a specific
>  remit to speak on this issue. As the UK Government has has had to learn
>  (slowly, slowly), exercises in inclusive, participatory democracy that
>  are conceived and managed in closed rooms tend not to be trusted. My own
>  sense is that the BBC is going to come up with some worthwhile ideas -
>  and is much better placed to do so than governments, national or local.
>
> Stephen
>
>  Stephen Coleman
>  Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for Digital
>  Citizenship,
>  Institute for Communications Studies,
>  University of Leeds
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>  From: David Wilcox <email obscured>]
>  Sent: 19 February 2008 11:37
>  To: <email obscured>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>  Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>
>  I've followed up with this piece
>  http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>
>  Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
>  services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>  society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>  (or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>  the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
>  don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
>  the BBC Internet blog where they are  exploring Digital Democracy.
>
>  My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
>  means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>  this field. Anyone have more info?
>
>  Regards
>  David
>
>
>  On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>
>  > The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>  > number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>  > months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
>  > an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>  > course if that's what seems right.
>  > Stephen
>  >
>  > Stephen Coleman
>  > Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>  > Digital Citizenship,
>  > Institute for Communications Studies,
>  > University of Leeds
>  >
>  > ________________________________
>  >
>  > From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>  > Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>  > To: <email obscured>
>  > Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>  > to ...
>  >
>  >
>  > From:
>  >
>  http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=
>  1
>  >
>  > Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>  >
>  > 28 January 2008
>  >
>  > By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>  >
>  > The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
>  > a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>  >
>  > Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>  > following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>  > service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>  >
>  > Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>  > of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>  > technology.
>  >
>  > Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>  > Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>  > video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>  >
>  > ...
>  >
>  > The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>  > symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>  > sections.
>  >
>  > "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>  > political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>  >
>  > Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>  > Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>  > local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
>  > place."
>  >
>  > User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>  > proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>  > the level of a town.
>  >
>
>
>  Member profile for David Wilcox:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
>  -----------------------------------------
>
>  Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
>  Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>  posts on this topic here:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3Zqun2ad1wdIox5O8DOVNM
>
>  For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>  email <email obscured>
>  with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
>  UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
>  http://dowire.org.
>
>
> Member profile for Stephen Coleman:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/stephencoleman
>
>
>
>  -----------------------------------------
>
>  Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
>  Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts
on this topic here:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/36k2jGHCkBvjNFz39zkL31
>
>
>
>  For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>  email <email obscured>
>  with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
>  UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
http://dowire.org.
>



--
Director, mySociety
07811 082158
www.FixMyStreet.com

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 20 20:48 UTC Short link

A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it from our
network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We started
where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features, colour,
interest, telling it, etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Hi Jill,

  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.

  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.

  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net

  Best of luck with oncom.

  Roy Daine

Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because this
could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great thing is
that it groups what the government likes to call "natural communities" into
boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the geographical local
context, plus communities can have their own interest groups too, to suit
themselves and the area where they live. It is iinfinitely adaptable as a
model and we know it works as it's grown, ground up and organically, over
ten years. There is certainly nothing centralised or top down about it and
the sheer numbers of people contributing the the websites in the network
keep it independent.
Best wishes
Jill

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.

I've followed up with this piece
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
(or networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
the BBC is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I
don't know .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on
the BBC Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.

My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
this field. Anyone have more info?

Regards
David

On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:

> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be
> an experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
> course if that's what seems right.
> Stephen
>
> Stephen Coleman
> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
> Digital Citizenship,
> Institute for Communications Studies,
> University of Leeds
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>
>
> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
> to ...
>
>
> From:
> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&c=1
>
> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>
> 28 January 2008
>
> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>
> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning
> a network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>
> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>
> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
> technology.
>
> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>
> ...
>
> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
> sections.
>
> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>
> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
> local is important to them. It brings everything together in one
> place."
>
> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
> the level of a town.
>

Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid

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From: Mick Date: 2008 Feb 20 23:51 UTC Short link

I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom looks
incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.

Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural England a
different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are many
types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows what
these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
companies have too but there is no national model that is particularly
scaleable, yet.

Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide the
117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or won't
maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting councillors!
Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will arise.
We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or blog
and little take up.

Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or campaign
needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
something their friends will look at.

Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a long
time to come!

Mick Phythian
ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester

-----Original Message-----
From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it from
our
network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We started
where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
colour,
interest, telling it, etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Hi Jill,

  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.

  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.

  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net

  Best of luck with oncom.

  Roy Daine

Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the
geographical local context, plus communities can have their own interest
groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent. Best
wishes Jill

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.

I've followed up with this piece
http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html

Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen (or
networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what the BBC
is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
.... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.

My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in this
field. Anyone have more info?

Regards
David

On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:

> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be an

> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>
> Stephen Coleman
> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
> University of Leeds
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
>
>
> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
> to ...
>
>
> From:
> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
> c=1
>
> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>
> 28 January 2008
>
> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>
> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning a
> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>
> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>
> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
> technology.
>
> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>
> ...
>
> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
> sections.
>
> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>
> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how local

> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>
> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to the

> level of a town.
>

Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid

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No virus found in this incoming message.
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From: Shane McCracken Date: 2008 Feb 21 10:04 UTC Short link

Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They all
share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community forum.

And the Govt involvement?

Oncom - not the greatest relationship
VentnorBlog - none
TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a consultation
but no formal relationship
TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
Issues Forum - none AFAIK

Shane

Shane McCracken
Director
Gallomanor Communications Ltd/

Mick Phythian wrote:
> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom looks
> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>
> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural England a
> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are many
> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows what
> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
> companies have too but there is no national model that is particularly
> scaleable, yet.
>
> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide the
> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or won't
> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting councillors!
> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will arise.
> We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or blog
> and little take up.
>
> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or campaign
> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
> something their friends will look at.
>
> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a long
> time to come!
>
> Mick Phythian
> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it from
> our
> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We started
> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
> colour,
> interest, telling it, etc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
> To: <email obscured>>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> Hi Jill,
>
>   Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>
>   You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>
>   It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>
>   Best of luck with oncom.
>
>   Roy Daine
>
> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>   Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the
> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own interest
> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent. Best
> wishes Jill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Wilcox"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>
> I've followed up with this piece
> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>
> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen (or
> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what the BBC
> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>
> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in this
> field. Anyone have more info?
>
> Regards
> David
>
>
> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>
>
>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be an
>>
>
>
>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>
>> Stephen Coleman
>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>> University of Leeds
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>> to ...
>>
>>
>> From:
>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
>> c=1
>>
>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>
>> 28 January 2008
>>
>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>
>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning a
>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>
>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>
>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>> technology.
>>
>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>> sections.
>>
>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>
>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how local
>>
>
>
>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>
>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to the
>>
>
>
>> level of a town.
>>
>>
>
>
> Member profile for David Wilcox:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
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>
>
>
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>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
> posts
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>
>
>
> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
> you. Member profile for Taffd:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>
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>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
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>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>
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--

Shane McCracken
Director
Gallomanor Communications Ltd.

creating community conversations

www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
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<email obscured> <email obscured>>
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Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-Avon,
BA15 2PU

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Feb 21 10:43 UTC Short link

Shane, Mick, all

If local community online initiatives are down to individuals or small
groups with a passion, and this will only happen bottom-up in a few
places, what might BBC (and other new media interests) do to help that
would not swamp the innovators and would help the rest?

David

On 21 Feb 2008, at 10:04, Shane McCracken wrote:

> Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
> technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
> passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
> TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
> IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
> discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They all
> share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
> individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community
> forum.
>
> And the Govt involvement?
>
> Oncom - not the greatest relationship
> VentnorBlog - none
> TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a
> consultation
> but no formal relationship
> TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
> Issues Forum - none AFAIK
>
> Shane
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd/
>
> Mick Phythian wrote:
>> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom
>> looks
>> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
>> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>>
>> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural
>> England a
>> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
>> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are
>> many
>> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows
>> what
>> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
>> companies have too but there is no national model that is
>> particularly
>> scaleable, yet.
>>
>> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide
>> the
>> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or
>> won't
>> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting
>> councillors!
>> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will
>> arise.
>> We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
>> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or
>> blog
>> and little take up.
>>
>> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or
>> campaign
>> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
>> something their friends will look at.
>>
>> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a
>> long
>> time to come!
>>
>> Mick Phythian
>> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
>> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it
>> from
>> our
>> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We
>> started
>> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
>> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
>> colour,
>> interest, telling it, etc.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
>> To: <email obscured>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> Hi Jill,
>>
>>  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>>
>>  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>>
>>  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>>
>>  Best of luck with oncom.
>>
>>  Roy Daine
>>
>> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>>  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
>> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
>> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
>> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent
>> the
>> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own
>> interest
>> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
>> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
>> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
>> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
>> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent.
>> Best
>> wishes Jill
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Wilcox"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>>
>> I've followed up with this piece
>> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>>
>> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
>> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>> (or
>> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>> the BBC
>> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
>> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
>> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>>
>> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
>> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>> this
>> field. Anyone have more info?
>>
>> Regards
>> David
>>
>>
>> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to
>>> be an
>>>
>>
>>
>>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>>
>>> Stephen Coleman
>>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>>> University of Leeds
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>>> To: <email obscured>
>>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>>> to ...
>>>
>>>
>>> From:
>>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
>>> c=1
>>>
>>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>>
>>> 28 January 2008
>>>
>>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>>
>>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by
>>> planning a
>>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>>
>>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>>
>>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>>> technology.
>>>
>>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>>> region.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>>> sections.
>>>
>>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>>
>>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>>> local
>>>
>>
>>
>>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>>
>>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>>> the
>>>
>>
>>
>>> level of a town.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for David Wilcox:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts on this topic here:
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>>
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>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the
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>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for Jill Sanders:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts
>> on this topic here:
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>>
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>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the
>> *subject*.
>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
>> you. Member profile for Taffd:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts
>> on this topic here:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/3chjFgyYruL3BzDkFIWz6C
>>
>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the
>> *subject*.
>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for Jill Sanders:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts on this topic here:
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>>
>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>> email <email obscured>
>> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>>
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>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>>
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>>
>>
>> Member profile for Mick:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
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>>
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>>
>
> --
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>
> creating community conversations
>
> www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
> cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
> www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/>
> www.lifeswap.org.uk <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>
>
> <email obscured> <email obscured>>
> mob:07720 297515
> tel:01225 869450
> fax:0870 7627 451
>
> 31 Silver Street
> Bradford on Avon
> BA15 1JX
>
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
> Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
> Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-Avon,
> BA15 2PU
>
>
> Member profile for Shane McCracken:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/shanegallomanor
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/4HoPvvU5sCLT9E6O2hdjIA
>
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> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
> - http://dowire.org.

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 21 12:15 UTC Short link

Hi All,

  One problem with all of the websites mentioned so far, including
myverdict.net, is the lack of awareness about these sites and their potential
to influence local government decision-making.

  Local governments have constitutions. Whether these constitutions have legal
status or are mere mission statements by another name, I do not know. In these
constitutions, which are much the same for all local authorities, it states
councils' responsibility for encouraging participation in the decision making
process. Councillors have a duty to be advocates of and for their constituents.

  Governments however, whether national or local, have no official mechanisms
for finding the majority view on any issue.

  I attended a local Area Committee meeting last night. In the open forum,
where the public has a chance to ask questions, the first questioner asked for
and received 200, to hold a youth seminar where it was hoped 60 people would
attend and thus encourage youth participation in the democratic process.

  A second speaker asked for a council survey to find local opinion about a
park and a third asked what the local opinion concerning a local shopping
precinct was.

  A question was asked on my behalf, so quietly that I struggled to hear it.

  I asked, with regard to the stated details I've mentioned in the
constitution, for the council's help in making local residents aware of
myverdict.net's existence and it's potential for enhancing the democratic
process, specifically by mentioning the site in press releases and on local
radio.

  I also stated that if the council's response was positive, I was prepared to
work with the council, to tailor the relevant sections of myverdict.net to the
exact requirements of the local community.

  As council members frequently appear on local radio and frequently issue
press releases, I envisaged that there would be no costs incurred.

  The question got a very muted response and is being referred to their legal
department from whom I will receive a response within 10 days.

  I had previously emailed 65 of 66 local councillors with a mini-questionnaire
contaning 4 questions, 3 of which only required a yes or no answer.

  I received 2 responses.

  It's odd that when two questions asked for local opinion, not one of the
committee was able to connect with the idea of myverdict.net, which is set up
precisely for that purpose.

  I think we might all be surprised by the response of the general public, if
we had the funds to advertise our presence.

  Regards

  Roy Daine


Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.

From: Simon Smith Date: 2008 Feb 21 14:23 UTC Short link

Those interested in this topic might find the report on the e-Community
Council pilot
project<http://itc.napier.ac.uk/ITC/Documents/e-community_council_final_report.pdf>in
Stirling County interesting reading. (Scottish Community Councils are
roughly the equivalent of parish councils or area committees in England).
If memory serves me the findings were mixed, and essentially support Shane's
and Mick's view that you can't impose a technology on people without local
champions.
Take a look at the websites now: http://www.ecommunitycouncil.org.uk/
6 community councils in the same region, same template, same tools
available. Today 2 seem to be actively used by both citizens and councillors
with some lively debate on important local issues, 2 seem to be well updated
by councillors, but serving only as community noticeboards (1-way
communication), and 2 seem to be pretty much dormant.
The report talks about the need for training, active promotion, technical
and other forms of support. Is this what the BBC should be concentrating on?
I do agree, however, that the transferability of any model to another area
is critically dependent on the presence of a few activists willing to take
the lead.
Simon Smith,
Centre for Digital Citizenship,
Institute of Communication Studies,
University of Leeds,
UK

On 21/02/2008, ROY DAINE <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> One problem with all of the websites mentioned so far, including
> myverdict.net, is the lack of awareness about these sites and their
> potential to influence local government decision-making.
>
> Local governments have constitutions. Whether these constitutions have
> legal status or are mere mission statements by another name, I do not know.
> In these constitutions, which are much the same for all local authorities,
> it states councils' responsibility for encouraging participation in the
> decision making process. Councillors have a duty to be advocates of and for
> their constituents.
>
> Governments however, whether national or local, have no official
> mechanisms for finding the majority view on any issue.
>
> I attended a local Area Committee meeting last night. In the open forum,
> where the public has a chance to ask questions, the first questioner asked
> for and received 200, to hold a youth seminar where it was hoped 60 people
> would attend and thus encourage youth participation in the democratic
> process.
>
> A second speaker asked for a council survey to find local opinion about a
> park and a third asked what the local opinion concerning a local shopping
> precinct was.
>
> A question was asked on my behalf, so quietly that I struggled to hear it.
>
> I asked, with regard to the stated details I've mentioned in the
> constitution, for the council's help in making local residents aware of
> myverdict.net's existence and it's potential for enhancing the democratic
> process, specifically by mentioning the site in press releases and on local
> radio.
>
> I also stated that if the council's response was positive, I was prepared
> to work with the council, to tailor the relevant sections of myverdict.netto
the exact requirements of the local community.
>
> As council members frequently appear on local radio and frequently issue
> press releases, I envisaged that there would be no costs incurred.
>
> The question got a very muted response and is being referred to their
> legal department from whom I will receive a response within 10 days.
>
> I had previously emailed 65 of 66 local councillors with a
> mini-questionnaire contaning 4 questions, 3 of which only required a yes or
> no answer.
>
> I received 2 responses.
>
> It's odd that when two questions asked for local opinion, not one of the
> committee was able to connect with the idea of myverdict.net, which is set
> up precisely for that purpose.
>
> I think we might all be surprised by the response of the general public,
> if we had the funds to advertise our presence.
>
> Regards
>
> Roy Daine
>
>
> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.
> Member profile for Taffd:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
> posts on this topic here:
> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/7MmBFV8Eu66LwL0zkDuE3N
>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
> http://dowire.org.
>

From: Shane McCracken Date: 2008 Feb 21 15:50 UTC Short link

Very interesting question, David.

I was never a big fan of Action Network.  It lacked certain
functionality such as being easily able to take your campaign offline
through leaflets etc.  It also suffered, as do all top down
implementations, of a lack of content for the first people there.  It
tried to be all things to everyone and as Mick has pointed out that
isn't necessarily going to work.

Does that mean the BBC should create a wide variety of tools, packaged
in a set that anyone can use?  No. Others in this country and abroad are
already doing it.

I think they could be most effective concentrating on their core
competency which is informing people.

Informing people about the tools that are out there, showing them how
they can be used, demonstrating they way they can change things.  They
can work with the tools available to report on the responsiveness of
authorities to local communities.

The BBC already promote and republish School League tables and IIRC NHS
trust tables.  Why not take the data from They Work For You, from Fix My
Street, from any other tools that prove their data to be reliable and
nationally comparative? An index of democracy?

Anecdotal research tells me that one of the reasons people don't
participate in local discussion groups (or other democratic purposes) is
because they have no discernable effect.  Perhaps an Index of Democracy
would help focus authorities minds on demonstrating their responsiveness
to their citizens.  At the moment the just seem to be focussed on there
service performance rather than democractic performance.

Shane




David Wilcox wrote:
> Shane, Mick, all
>
> If local community online initiatives are down to individuals or small
> groups with a passion, and this will only happen bottom-up in a few
> places, what might BBC (and other new media interests) do to help that
> would not swamp the innovators and would help the rest?
>
> David
>
> On 21 Feb 2008, at 10:04, Shane McCracken wrote:
>
>
>> Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
>> technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
>> passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
>> TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
>> IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
>> discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They all
>> share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
>> individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community
>> forum.
>>
>> And the Govt involvement?
>>
>> Oncom - not the greatest relationship
>> VentnorBlog - none
>> TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a
>> consultation
>> but no formal relationship
>> TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
>> Issues Forum - none AFAIK
>>
>> Shane
>>
>> Shane McCracken
>> Director
>> Gallomanor Communications Ltd/
>>
>> Mick Phythian wrote:
>>
>>> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom
>>> looks
>>> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
>>> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>>>
>>> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural
>>> England a
>>> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
>>> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are
>>> many
>>> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows
>>> what
>>> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
>>> companies have too but there is no national model that is
>>> particularly
>>> scaleable, yet.
>>>
>>> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide
>>> the
>>> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or
>>> won't
>>> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting
>>> councillors!
>>> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will
>>> arise.
>>> We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
>>> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or
>>> blog
>>> and little take up.
>>>
>>> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or
>>> campaign
>>> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
>>> something their friends will look at.
>>>
>>> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a
>>> long
>>> time to come!
>>>
>>> Mick Phythian
>>> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
>>> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
>>> To: <email obscured>
>>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it
>>> from
>>> our
>>> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We
>>> started
>>> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
>>> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
>>> colour,
>>> interest, telling it, etc.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
>>> To: <email obscured>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Jill,
>>>
>>>  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>>>
>>>  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>>>
>>>  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>>>
>>>  Best of luck with oncom.
>>>
>>>  Roy Daine
>>>
>>> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>>>  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
>>> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
>>> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
>>> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent
>>> the
>>> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own
>>> interest
>>> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
>>> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
>>> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
>>> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
>>> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent.
>>> Best
>>> wishes Jill
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Wilcox"
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>>>
>>> I've followed up with this piece
>>> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>>>
>>> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
>>> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>>> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>>> (or
>>> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>>> the BBC
>>> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
>>> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
>>> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>>>
>>> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
>>> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>>> this
>>> field. Anyone have more info?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>>>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>>>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to
>>>> be an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>>>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Coleman
>>>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>>>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>>>> University of Leeds
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>>>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>>>> To: <email obscured>
>>>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>>>> to ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From:
>>>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
>>>> c=1
>>>>
>>>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>>>
>>>> 28 January 2008
>>>>
>>>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>>>
>>>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by
>>>> planning a
>>>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>>>
>>>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>>>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>>>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>>>
>>>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>>>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>>>> technology.
>>>>
>>>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>>>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>>>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>>>> region.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>>>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>>>> sections.
>>>>
>>>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>>>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>>>
>>>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>>>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>>>> local
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>>>
>>>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>>>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> level of a town.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>> --
>>
>> Shane McCracken
>> Director
>> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>>
>> creating community conversations
>>
>> www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
>> cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
>> www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/>
>> www.lifeswap.org.uk <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>
>>
>> <email obscured> <email obscured>>
>> mob:07720 297515
>> tel:01225 869450
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>>
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>>
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>> BA15 2PU
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>> Member profile for Shane McCracken:
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>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
> Member profile for David Wilcox:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
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--

Shane McCracken
Director
Gallomanor Communications Ltd.

creating community conversations

www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
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<email obscured> <email obscured>>
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Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-Avon,
BA15 2PU

From: ellie stoneley Date: 2008 Feb 21 18:41 UTC Short link

Interesting discussion this - we have found that by providing a local but
SHARED platform to communities across the whole of the UK which any member
of the local (geographical) community can contribute to UKVillages has
grown and flourished. When someone posts information to for example
Harston - in Cambridgeshire, that information is also shared to pages for
all the neighbouring communities - the logic behind this being that no
community exists in isolation and people travel for local services,
leisure and so on ... this is even more relvant where communities fall on
the edge of county boundaries. Every community knows where it sits in
relation to county, district and Parish Council and neighbours.

Of the 31,759 UK communities on line on UKVillages.co.uk something like
98% have been contributed to in the last year - some communities far more
active than others - some with many people contributing directly - others
doing so via one person (something we don't encourage but ultimately it is
down to personal choice). We also allow people to link exisiting websites
through the site. What we found didn't work was a discussion forum area.

Interesting point made about giving websites to Parishes ... having worked
now on projects with EERA, Cornwall Association of Parish and Town
Councils, Herts Association and others we have found that the issue for
Parish Councils is generally one of resource and time - and also proving
relevance.
To that end we helped with the development of Training material in 2
stages - firstly - Why Your Parish Council Needs a Website? and secondly -
How a Parish Council can make the most of their website for themselves and
their wider community ... these have helped tremendously in uptake of
sites - particularly in Norfolk. Interestingly I believe that NALC are
shortly to announce their reccommendations as to achieving Quality Parish
Status - and having a website will become a requirement rather than an "it
would be good if you had one". This is based on wide consultation ...

We haven't had any Govt involvement - we have worked on projects for and
with both Local and National Govt - some to our benefit - others nearly to
our ruin ... Prince 2 aaaaggggggghhhhhhhhhh - I also spent time with the
BBC at the beginning of iCan following hearing Sian Kevil launch the
concept at the 2001 eSummit - but they never took much notice of our input
and iCan seemed to end up more around communities of interest - this new
project seems to be very young people targeted ... it is they who are the
least likely to engage with it as they will be led more by peer interest -
for example the flocking to and subsequently from MySpace to and now it
seems beginning to be from Facebook (5% drop in new UK registrations this
month)

Ellie Stoneley
UKVillages.co.uk

UKVillages Ltd, The Barn, 48 Mill Way, Grantchester, Cambs, CB3 9NB
Telephone 0845 634 3243
E-mail: <email obscured>
Visit UKVillages on http://www.ukvillages.co.uk and make yourself at home

Email Disclaimer
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reflect the opinions of the company. They may be subject to change without
notice.




Shane McCracken <email obscured>>
21/02/2008 10:04
Please respond to ukie


        To:     <email obscured>
        cc:
        Subject:        Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy


Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They all
share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community forum.

And the Govt involvement?

Oncom - not the greatest relationship
VentnorBlog - none
TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a consultation
but no formal relationship
TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
Issues Forum - none AFAIK

Shane

Shane McCracken
Director
Gallomanor Communications Ltd/

Mick Phythian wrote:
> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom looks
> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>
> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural England a
> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are many
> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows what
> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
> companies have too but there is no national model that is particularly
> scaleable, yet.
>
> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide the
> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or won't
> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting councillors!
> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will arise.
> We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or blog
> and little take up.
>
> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or campaign
> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
> something their friends will look at.
>
> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a long
> time to come!
>
> Mick Phythian
> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
> To: <email obscured>
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it from
> our
> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We started
> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
> colour,
> interest, telling it, etc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
> To: <email obscured>>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> Hi Jill,
>
>   Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>
>   You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>
>   It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>
>   Best of luck with oncom.
>
>   Roy Daine
>
> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>   Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent the
> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own interest
> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent. Best
> wishes Jill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Wilcox"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>
>
> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>
> I've followed up with this piece
> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>
> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen (or
> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what the BBC
> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>
> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in this
> field. Anyone have more info?
>
> Regards
> David
>
>
> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>
>
>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to be an
>>
>
>
>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>
>> Stephen Coleman
>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>> University of Leeds
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>> to ...
>>
>>
>> From:
>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
>> c=1
>>
>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>
>> 28 January 2008
>>
>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>
>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by planning a
>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>
>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>
>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>> technology.
>>
>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified region.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>> sections.
>>
>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>
>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how local
>>
>
>
>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>
>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to the
>>
>
>
>> level of a town.
>>
>>
>
>
> Member profile for David Wilcox:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
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>
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>
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> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
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> posts
> on this topic here:
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>
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> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the
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>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
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>
>
>
> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
> you. Member profile for Taffd:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
> posts
> on this topic here:
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>
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>
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> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
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> posts on this topic here:
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>
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>
>
> -----------------------------------------
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>

--

Shane McCracken
Director
Gallomanor Communications Ltd.

creating community conversations

www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/>
www.lifeswap.org.uk <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>

<email obscured> <email obscured>>
mob:07720 297515
tel:01225 869450
fax:0870 7627 451

31 Silver Street
Bradford on Avon
BA15 1JX

Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-Avon,
BA15 2PU


Member profile for Shane McCracken:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/shanegallomanor


-----------------------------------------

Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie

Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
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NT0007B086

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 21 19:03 UTC Short link

Very good zillion dollar question, David.  Let me think about it some more.
So far I have found it without an answer to be had!  If some large and
monied national and trustworthy independent organisation were willing to
invest in the Oncom model, it could adapt to everwhere, and I think doing it
to match the local authority is essential for many reasons, all borne out by
experience and too much to go into here.  It should not be funded by
government, absolutely not.  A local community network may, in the fullness
of time, be able to generate some funding of its own.  If set up with
technical support I don't see why a handful of good quality staff could not
run each local network because so much of the work is done by citizen
journalists, local people and through newsfeeds.  As people grow
increasingly competent in using the internet and making their own websites,
it is the local context they need - that's always been the most important
thing for Oncom, for local campaigning and sharing knowledge across the
community.  The way Oncom works it goes from small to big and bigger, and it
could also go smaller, down to street level if people wanted.  This is what
John Inglis envisaged - garden fence, street corner stuff even.  However, no
one has ever shown the slightest interest in backing Oncom's work.  I can
only say that it is tried and tested and used for over more than ten years
now and there's nothing else with that kind of history.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilcox" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy


Shane, Mick, all

If local community online initiatives are down to individuals or small
groups with a passion, and this will only happen bottom-up in a few
places, what might BBC (and other new media interests) do to help that
would not swamp the innovators and would help the rest?

David

On 21 Feb 2008, at 10:04, Shane McCracken wrote:

> Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
> technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
> passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
> TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
> IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
> discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They all
> share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
> individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community
> forum.
>
> And the Govt involvement?
>
> Oncom - not the greatest relationship
> VentnorBlog - none
> TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a
> consultation
> but no formal relationship
> TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
> Issues Forum - none AFAIK
>
> Shane
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd/
>
> Mick Phythian wrote:
>> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom
>> looks
>> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
>> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>>
>> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural
>> England a
>> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
>> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are
>> many
>> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows
>> what
>> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
>> companies have too but there is no national model that is
>> particularly
>> scaleable, yet.
>>
>> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide
>> the
>> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or
>> won't
>> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting
>> councillors!
>> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will
>> arise.
>> We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
>> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or
>> blog
>> and little take up.
>>
>> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or
>> campaign
>> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
>> something their friends will look at.
>>
>> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a
>> long
>> time to come!
>>
>> Mick Phythian
>> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
>> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it
>> from
>> our
>> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We
>> started
>> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
>> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
>> colour,
>> interest, telling it, etc.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
>> To: <email obscured>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> Hi Jill,
>>
>>  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>>
>>  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>>
>>  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>>
>>  Best of luck with oncom.
>>
>>  Roy Daine
>>
>> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>>  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
>> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
>> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
>> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent
>> the
>> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own
>> interest
>> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
>> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
>> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
>> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
>> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent.
>> Best
>> wishes Jill
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Wilcox"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>>
>> I've followed up with this piece
>> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>>
>> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
>> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>> (or
>> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>> the BBC
>> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
>> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
>> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>>
>> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
>> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>> this
>> field. Anyone have more info?
>>
>> Regards
>> David
>>
>>
>> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a
>>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to
>>> be an
>>>
>>
>>
>>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>>
>>> Stephen Coleman
>>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>>> University of Leeds
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>>> To: <email obscured>
>>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related
>>> to ...
>>>
>>>
>>> From:
>>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
>>> c=1
>>>
>>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>>
>>> 28 January 2008
>>>
>>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>>
>>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by
>>> planning a
>>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>>
>>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>>
>>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network
>>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>>> technology.
>>>
>>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>>> region.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>>> sections.
>>>
>>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>>
>>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>>> local
>>>
>>
>>
>>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>>
>>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>>> the
>>>
>>
>>
>>> level of a town.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for David Wilcox:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
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>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
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>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>>
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>> on this topic here:
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>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the
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>>
>>
>>
>> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
>> you. Member profile for Taffd:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
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>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts
>> on this topic here:
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>>
>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the
>> *subject*.
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>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for Jill Sanders:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all
>> posts on this topic here:
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>> email <email obscured>
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>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date:
>> 20/02/2008 10:26
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date:
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>>
>>
>> Member profile for Mick:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
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>> all posts on this topic here:
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>>
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>> - http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>
> creating community conversations
>
> www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
> cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
> www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/>
> www.lifeswap.org.uk <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>
>
> <email obscured> <email obscured>>
> mob:07720 297515
> tel:01225 869450
> fax:0870 7627 451
>
> 31 Silver Street
> Bradford on Avon
> BA15 1JX
>
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
> Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
> Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-Avon,
> BA15 2PU
>
>
> Member profile for Shane McCracken:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/shanegallomanor
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
> all posts on this topic here:
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>
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> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
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> - http://dowire.org.


Member profile for David Wilcox:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid


-----------------------------------------

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on this topic here:
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From: Mick Date: 2008 Feb 21 20:20 UTC Short link

They can facilitate and support... For a while I did a blog via the BBC
that was well received locally but the journalists didn't have time to
maintain it adequately, so I got bored pushing them:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/we_love_ny/blogs/meadow/index.shtml

But the local paper provide a basic CMS that community groups can
maintain themselves, and apparently they have bigger and better plans...
http://www.communigate.co.uk/york/form/index.phtml

For a few years now I've viewed this from a community activist,
practitioner and researcher and its back to the old message of
'providing tools' rather than 'food' and the thing will sustain.

What might help is one unifying sustainable force to unify all these
communities of interest within geographical communities. Having said
that government is realising that electoral boundaries don't marry with
neighbourhoods or other communities, so work at Sheffield and places is
restrucuring these electoral communities but currently mainly to
identify issues and assist with community planning.

Mick

-----Original Message-----
From: David Wilcox <email obscured>]
Sent: 21 February 2008 10:43
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy


Shane, Mick, all

If local community online initiatives are down to individuals or small
groups with a passion, and this will only happen bottom-up in a few
places, what might BBC (and other new media interests) do to help that
would not swamp the innovators and would help the rest?

David

On 21 Feb 2008, at 10:04, Shane McCracken wrote:

> Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
> technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
> passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
> TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
> IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
> discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They all

> share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
> individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community
> forum.
>
> And the Govt involvement?
>
> Oncom - not the greatest relationship
> VentnorBlog - none
> TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a
> consultation
> but no formal relationship
> TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
> Issues Forum - none AFAIK
>
> Shane
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd/
>
> Mick Phythian wrote:
>> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom
>> looks
>> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits the
>> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>>
>> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural
>> England a
>> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
>> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are
>> many
>> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows
>> what
>> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
>> companies have too but there is no national model that is
>> particularly
>> scaleable, yet.
>>
>> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide
>> the
>> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or
>> won't
>> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting
>> councillors!
>> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will
>> arise.
>> We put discussion forums on the district council web site (internally
>> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or
>> blog
>> and little take up.
>>
>> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or
>> campaign
>> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
>> something their friends will look at.
>>
>> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a
>> long
>> time to come!
>>
>> Mick Phythian
>> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU Leicester
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
>> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
>> To: <email obscured>
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it
>> from
>> our
>> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We
>> started
>> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
>> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
>> colour,
>> interest, telling it, etc.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
>> To: <email obscured>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> Hi Jill,
>>
>>  Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>>
>>  You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>>
>>  It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>>
>>  Best of luck with oncom.
>>
>>  Roy Daine
>>
>> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>>  Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
>> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The great
>> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
>> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent
>> the
>> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own
>> interest
>> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
>> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's grown,
>> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly nothing
>> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
>> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent.
>> Best
>> wishes Jill
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Wilcox"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>
>>
>> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>>
>> I've followed up with this piece
>> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-su.html
>>
>> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-media
>> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>> (or
>> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>> the BBC
>> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't know
>> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
>> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>>
>> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for some
>> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>> this
>> field. Anyone have more info?
>>
>> Regards
>> David
>>
>>
>> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to do a

>>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to
>>> be an
>>>
>>
>>
>>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>>
>>> Stephen Coleman
>>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>>> University of Leeds
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>>> To: <email obscured>
>>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might related

>>> to ...
>>>
>>>
>>> From:
>>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=4008
>>> 1&
>>> c=1
>>>
>>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>>
>>> 28 January 2008
>>>
>>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>>
>>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by
>>> planning a
>>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>>
>>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>>
>>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new network

>>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>>> technology.
>>>
>>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>>> region.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>>> sections.
>>>
>>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>>
>>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the BBC
>>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>>> local
>>>
>>
>>
>>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>>
>>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>>> the
>>>
>>
>>
>>> level of a town.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for David Wilcox:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all

>> posts on this topic here:
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>>
>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the

>> *subject*.
>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -

>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for Jill Sanders:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
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>> posts on this topic here:
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>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the

>> *subject*.
>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -

>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns

>> you. Member profile for Taffd:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
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>> posts on this topic here:
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>> email <email obscured> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the

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>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for Jill Sanders:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/sandersjill
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
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>> *subject*.
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>> http://dowire.org.
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date:
>> 20/02/2008 10:26
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>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date:
>> 20/02/2008 10:26
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>>
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>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
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>
> --
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>
> creating community conversations
>
> www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
> cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
> www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/> www.lifeswap.org.uk
> <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>
>
> <email obscured> <email obscured>>
> mob:07720 297515
> tel:01225 869450
> fax:0870 7627 451
>
> 31 Silver Street
> Bradford on Avon
> BA15 1JX
>
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
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From: Andy Williamson Date: 2008 Feb 22 08:15 UTC Short link

One of the big problems I've looked at with online communities is
sustainability. I've seen right across my work that - as David points out -
online communities tend to happen because of a small and motivated group within
an existing offline community doing something. The problem comes in two ways.
First, if as already noted, the solution is driven by the technology not the
people it generally falls flat and fails because the motivation is wrong.

Second, the people with the ideas are not the people to operationalise. And the
people who are prepared to run operations day-to-day are not usually
innovators. This is the biggy for me and it might be an opening into where
organisations like the BBC and others could step in; more managed, cooky-cutter
community environments would definitely take away some of the overhead, could
perceivably increase the chance of sustainability and might also reduce the
perceived risk of getting communities online amongst the later adopters
(thinking of the trust factor here too).

From: Ella Taylor-Smith Date: 2008 Feb 22 08:41 UTC Short link

Hi,
I think there's a lot to be said for initiatives based on the
relationship between media organisations and e-democracy-type groups.
(Though the media organisations need some sort of public service remit
to inspire them here.)

One example of this (admittedly in the U.S. where this public service
remit is written into many organisations constitution) is Newz Crew
http://newzcrew.org/
A discussion forum based on 'youth circles' (inspired by Weblab's Small
Group Dialogues ). Newz Crew uses the Internet and news media to develop
and promote media literacy and youth engagement in the democratic
process.
People register and are allocated discussion groups. Discussion groups
exists for a preset amount of time - though the group can vote to
continue.
News items are posted on the website and group discussions are mostly
based on these items. Group members can start new topics for their
group.
Featured discussions are shown on the website.

*	Participants come from all over the world, though the
organisation is U.S. - based. There is also a U.S. slant to the news and
topics
*	Participants should be between 14 and 19 years old
The project is run by Global Kids and NewsHour Extra.
*	Global Kids  is a New York City-based educational organisation
that supports urban youth to become global citizens and community
leaders.
*	NewsHour Extra  is the student section of the Online NewsHour,
- a PBS news program. PBS is a non-profit media organisation.
http://weblab.org/
  http://www.globalkids.org/
  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/
I think it's significant that this is aimed at young people...

Also, a project that I'm involved in is trying to create e-participation
processes in Serbia, Albania and Macedonia, by working in partnership
with their national news agencies.
http://www.web-dep.eu/
The idea is that the news agencies have the contacts (journalists,
experts and government) to create good content to support discussions,
to involve government and NGO reps and to track the influence.
I think this is another interesting tangent to the this discussion which
wouldn't work here because of our more developed Internet culture.

-Ella
Ella Taylor-Smith

International Teledemocracy Centre
Napier University
10 Colinton Road
Edinburgh, EH10 5DT

Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
Email: <email obscured>

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From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Feb 22 15:11 UTC Short link

Thanks Shane, all, for response my question and earlier discussion

>> If local community online initiatives are down to individuals or
>> small
>> groups with a passion, and this will only happen bottom-up in a few
>> places, what might BBC (and other new media interests) do to help
>> that
>> would not swamp the innovators and would help the rest?

I think there's a consensus that BBC should help people find the
tools, link, support  etc

How do we surface this conversation, have some influence - maybe get
some bottom-up action? (This is a great forum, but not many people
know it is here ...)

I've got provisional interest from RSA, Involve and POLIS (new
journalism think tank) following a post about a possible conference.
http://openrsa.blogspot.com/2008/02/rsa-event-proposal-how-should-bbc.html

There's other things we could do if we turned this conversation into a
project. Time for some grassroots e-edemocracy in support of
grassroots etc?

Anyone interested in joining in?

David



On 21 Feb 2008, at 12:22, Shane McCracken wrote:

> Very interesting question, David.
>
> I was never a big fan of Action Network.  It lacked certain
> functionality such as being easily able to take your campaign offline
> through leaflets etc.  It also suffered, as do all top down
> implementations, of a lack of content for the first people there.  It
> tried to be all things to everyone and as Mick has pointed out that
> isn't necessarily going to work.
>
> Does that mean the BBC should create a wide variety of tools, packaged
> in a set that anyone can use?  No. Others in this country and abroad
> are
> already doing it.
>
> I think they could be most effective concentrating on their core
> competency which is informing people.
>
> Informing people about the tools that are out there, showing them how
> they can be used, demonstrating they way they can change things.  They
> can work with the tools available to report on the responsiveness of
> authorities to local communities.
>
> The BBC already promote and republish School League tables and IIRC
> NHS
> trust tables.  Why not take the data from They Work For You, from
> Fix My
> Street, from any other tools that prove their data to be reliable and
> nationally comparative? An index of democracy?
>
> Anecdotal research tells me that one of the reasons people don't
> participate in local discussion groups (or other democratic
> purposes) is
> because they have no discernable effect.  Perhaps an Index of
> Democracy
> would help focus authorities minds on demonstrating their
> responsiveness
> to their citizens.  At the moment the just seem to be focussed on
> there
> service performance rather than democractic performance.
>
> Shane
>
>
>
>
> David Wilcox wrote:
>> Shane, Mick, all
>>
>> If local community online initiatives are down to individuals or
>> small
>> groups with a passion, and this will only happen bottom-up in a few
>> places, what might BBC (and other new media interests) do to help
>> that
>> would not swamp the innovators and would help the rest?
>>
>> David
>>
>> On 21 Feb 2008, at 10:04, Shane McCracken wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Mick's findings match up with what we found.  You can't impose a
>>> technology on people.  Local websites develop because of people with
>>> passion and energy as I think Oncom is an example.  VentnorBlog,
>>> TalkSwindon, TalkClacton (what was wrong with ClactonChat???),
>>> IssuesForum Mn are others.  They are all sucessful community web
>>> discussion sites and not one shares technology with another.  They
>>> all
>>> share one thing in common - an individual (or small group of
>>> individuals) who have taken it upon themselves to start a community
>>> forum.
>>>
>>> And the Govt involvement?
>>>
>>> Oncom - not the greatest relationship
>>> VentnorBlog - none
>>> TalkSwindon - some cllrs are members and they have hosted a
>>> consultation
>>> but no formal relationship
>>> TalkClacton - hosted by the local MP
>>> Issues Forum - none AFAIK
>>>
>>> Shane
>>>
>>> Shane McCracken
>>> Director
>>> Gallomanor Communications Ltd/
>>>
>>> Mick Phythian wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'll have to disagree with Jill I'm afraid, although I think oncom
>>>> looks
>>>> incredibly professional, and also with Roy since although he hits
>>>> the
>>>> government structure, it replicates what people are doing anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Once one gets away from the London conurbation and hits rural
>>>> England a
>>>> different type of problem arises - if the skills are available and
>>>> enough people will look at it, a web site will appear but there are
>>>> many
>>>> types of community - communities of interest etc and no-one knows
>>>> what
>>>> these are nationally - the BBC has done some work, some other media
>>>> companies have too but there is no national model that is
>>>> particularly
>>>> scaleable, yet.
>>>>
>>>> Working as a local government IT manager I have offered to provide
>>>> the
>>>> 117 parishes within our district with sites but they don't want or
>>>> won't
>>>> maintain them - they probably have enough trouble getting
>>>> councillors!
>>>> Try doing it on communities of interest and the same issue will
>>>> arise.
>>>> We put discussion forums on the district council web site
>>>> (internally
>>>> and externally) and no usage. We offer the councillors web sites or
>>>> blog
>>>> and little take up.
>>>>
>>>> Some local communities do well and have the focused energy or
>>>> campaign
>>>> needs. When young people want something they remanage Youtube or
>>>> something their friends will look at.
>>>>
>>>> Its horses for courses and we'll have a ragbag of solutions for a
>>>> long
>>>> time to come!
>>>>
>>>> Mick Phythian
>>>> ICT Manager, Yorkshire & E-government researcher CCSR, DMU
>>>> Leicester
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
>>>> Sent: 20 February 2008 20:48
>>>> To: <email obscured>
>>>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A Big Idea, but not exactly local, though, not as I understand it
>>>> from
>>>> our
>>>> network.  Not enough detail! It's all hard work, is it not.  We
>>>> started
>>>> where we live and rolled oncom out across the borough (and beyond
>>>> potentially).  I miss photos - we find them essential for features,
>>>> colour,
>>>> interest, telling it, etc.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
>>>> To: <email obscured>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jill,
>>>>
>>>> Just took a look at oncom.org. Very good.
>>>>
>>>> You suggest that a similar site could easily be country wide.
>>>>
>>>> It already is. In fact it is worldwide. It is www.myverdict.net
>>>>
>>>> Best of luck with oncom.
>>>>
>>>> Roy Daine
>>>>
>>>> Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
>>>> Why doesn't the BBC look at what we do at www.oncom.org.uk because
>>>> this could easily be country-wide, across every community? The
>>>> great
>>>> thing is that it groups what the government likes to call "natural
>>>> communities" into boroughs, the democratic and to a certain extent
>>>> the
>>>> geographical local context, plus communities can have their own
>>>> interest
>>>> groups too, to suit themselves and the area where they live. It is
>>>> iinfinitely adaptable as a model and we know it works as it's
>>>> grown,
>>>> ground up and organically, over ten years. There is certainly
>>>> nothing
>>>> centralised or top down about it and the sheer numbers of people
>>>> contributing the the websites in the network keep it independent.
>>>> Best
>>>> wishes Jill
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David Wilcox"
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Steven and Stephen or highlighting this.
>>>>
>>>> I've followed up with this piece
>>>> http://www.designingforcivilsociety.org/2008/02/bbc-plans-to-
>>>> su.html
>>>>
>>>> Here's a story about how the BBC is developing new local multi-
>>>> media
>>>> services, its Charter remit for "sustaining citizenship and civil
>>>> society", the closure of BBC Action network, development of citizen
>>>> (or
>>>> networked) journalism, and how the BBC Trust consults us on what
>>>> the BBC
>>>> is for. These developments and issues may be related ... I don't
>>>> know
>>>> .... but I think we should be told. But by whom? Maybe on the BBC
>>>> Internet blog where they are exploring Digital Democracy.
>>>>
>>>> My main point is that the BBC, or BBC Trust, should provide for
>>>> some
>>>> means to engage with the rest of us about what they are planning in
>>>> this
>>>> field. Anyone have more info?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 18 Feb 2008, at 17:10, Stephen Coleman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The BBC is dropping/has dropped the Action Network. It plans to
>>>>> do a
>>>>> number of other exciting things along these lines in the coming
>>>>> months. The Action network (previously iCan) was always meant to
>>>>> be an
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> experiment. The BBC is right to learn from experiments and change
>>>>> course if that's what seems right. Stephen
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen Coleman
>>>>> Professor of Political Communication and Co-Director, Centre for
>>>>> Digital Citizenship, Institute for Communications Studies,
>>>>> University of Leeds
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Steven Clift <email obscured>]
>>>>> Sent: Mon 18-Feb-08 5:04 PM
>>>>> To: <email obscured>
>>>>> Subject: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have an update on the Action Network and how it might
>>>>> related
>>>>> to ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From:
>>>>> http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40081&
>>>>> c=1
>>>>>
>>>>> Regional newspapers' fury at BBC local web plan
>>>>>
>>>>> 28 January 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> By Sarah Lagan, Jason Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> The BBC has prompted a new rift with the regional press by
>>>>> planning a
>>>>> network of 60 ultra-local websites.
>>>>>
>>>>> Previous plans for BBC ultra-local TV were dropped in October
>>>>> following a huge backlash from regional newspapers that feared the
>>>>> service would stifle their own multimedia online efforts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now Press Gazette has learned that the BBC is planning a new
>>>>> network
>>>>> of websites, using the latest online localisation and mapping
>>>>> technology.
>>>>>
>>>>> Controller of BBC English Regions Andy Griffee told students at
>>>>> Coventry University that new service would involve text, audio and
>>>>> video news which could be navigated using a map of a specified
>>>>> region.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> The prototype BBC site covers news, sport, travel and weather with
>>>>> symbols providing users with the main means of navigating between
>>>>> sections.
>>>>>
>>>>> "E-democracy" will also enable people to research politicians and
>>>>> political parties via more interactive and informative means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Griffee said: "It is work in progress but I intend to go to the
>>>>> BBC
>>>>> Trust and seek its permission to launch it. Users can decide how
>>>>> local
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> is important to them. It brings everything together in one place."
>>>>>
>>>>> User-generated content is understood to form a major part of the
>>>>> proposed new network - which could be narrowed down by the user to
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> level of a town.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Member profile for David Wilcox:
>>>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/wilcoxdavid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that
>>>> concerns
>>>> you. Member profile for Taffd:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>>>
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>>> --
>>>
>>> Shane McCracken
>>> Director
>>> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>>>
>>> creating community conversations
>>>
>>> www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
>>> cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
>>> www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/>
>>> www.lifeswap.org.uk <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>
>>>
>>> <email obscured> <email obscured>>
>>> mob:07720 297515
>>> tel:01225 869450
>>> fax:0870 7627 451
>>>
>>> 31 Silver Street
>>> Bradford on Avon
>>> BA15 1JX
>>>
>>> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>>> Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
>>> Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-
>>> Avon,
>>> BA15 2PU
>>>
>>>
>>> Member profile for Shane McCracken:
>>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/shanegallomanor
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>> Member profile for David Wilcox:
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>>
>>
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>
> --
>
> Shane McCracken
> Director
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
>
> creating community conversations
>
> www.gallomanor.com <http://www.gallomanor.com/>
> cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com <http://cllr2pointzero.wordpress.com/>
> www.bigvote.org.uk <http://www.bigvote.org.uk/>
> www.lifeswap.org.uk <http://www.lifeswap.org.uk/>
>
> <email obscured> <email obscured>>
> mob:07720 297515
> tel:01225 869450
> fax:0870 7627 451
>
> 31 Silver Street
> Bradford on Avon
> BA15 1JX
>
> Gallomanor Communications Ltd.
> Registered in England & Wales, No. 03980700.
> Registered Address: Duckmead Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford-on-Avon,
> BA15 2PU
>
>
> Member profile for Shane McCracken:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/shanegallomanor
>
>
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From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 22 16:11 UTC Short link

Hi All,

  This response pertains to a point in Shane's message -

  Anecdotal research tells me that one of the reasons people don't participate
in local discussion groups (or other democratic purposes) is because they have
no discernable effect.

  One of my local councillors, when elected, polled 1,233 votes out of 2,766
cast. The voter turnout was 29.7% of the electorate.

  There are therefore about 9000 eligible voters in my ward.

  If all the citizens who voted for said councillor made their views known to
him on any one issue, they would still not constitute a majority opinion of the
will of the people.

  While he would no doubt make representation on behalf of those who made their
opinions known, he would not be obliged to support it or vote accordingly, it
being a minority opinion.(For the same reason, Downing St. petitions can be
ignored)

  However, if 4,501 people expressed a view, he would be obliged by the
council's constitution, to be an advocate of and for said opinion.

  The need then, if people actually want their opinions to have an effect on
policy, is for them to state their views in greater numbers.

  myverdict.net is set up to collect majority opinions on every issue. It may
not be the ideal but it covers the whole of the UK down to local authority
level. It could easily and quickly be extended downwards to ward level.

  What myverdict.net needs is exposure/publicity, to let people know that it
exists. The same is true of course for any and all sites working in this genre.

  As I see it, if the BBC wishes to continue to be funded by the public, it has
a duty to be a public service broadcaster.

  It should not be trying to compete with these websites but informing the
public of their existence and their potential for the democratic process.

  Best Regards

  Roy


Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.

From: Mick Date: 2008 Feb 22 19:18 UTC Short link

I can understand Roy's figures and this point is repeatedly put even
within government but I can't see myverdict making a difference,
especially looking rather dated and not appearing to give control to
those who might develop the links. Jill's UK Villages was sexier but
couldn't find my postcode and struggled bringing York up (I got bored
waiting).

I think the media and in particular the BBC with its public service
ethos is a bet and I'm up for it. The CMS that local radio uses is
pretty cheesy and lost a lot of my data and the journos struggled using
it, so I think a better solution may go down well!

The public still have some trust in the BBC particularly in local
journalism, where it covers many local issues and is useful in the event
of a disaster - another place links come in. Why completely reinvent the
wheel - just get them a better CMS?

Mick

Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: ROY DAINE <email obscured>]
Sent: 22 February 2008 16:12
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Hi All,

  This response pertains to a point in Shane's message -

  Anecdotal research tells me that one of the reasons people don't
participate in local discussion groups (or other democratic purposes) is
because they have no discernable effect.

  One of my local councillors, when elected, polled 1,233 votes out of
2,766 cast. The voter turnout was 29.7% of the electorate.

  There are therefore about 9000 eligible voters in my ward.

  If all the citizens who voted for said councillor made their views
known to him on any one issue, they would still not constitute a
majority opinion of the will of the people.

  While he would no doubt make representation on behalf of those who
made their opinions known, he would not be obliged to support it or vote
accordingly, it being a minority opinion.(For the same reason, Downing
St. petitions can be ignored)

  However, if 4,501 people expressed a view, he would be obliged by the
council's constitution, to be an advocate of and for said opinion.

  The need then, if people actually want their opinions to have an
effect on policy, is for them to state their views in greater numbers.

  myverdict.net is set up to collect majority opinions on every issue.
It may not be the ideal but it covers the whole of the UK down to local
authority level. It could easily and quickly be extended downwards to
ward level.

  What myverdict.net needs is exposure/publicity, to let people know
that it exists. The same is true of course for any and all sites working
in this genre.

  As I see it, if the BBC wishes to continue to be funded by the public,
it has a duty to be a public service broadcaster.

  It should not be trying to compete with these websites but informing
the public of their existence and their potential for the democratic
process.

  Best Regards

  Roy

Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
you. Member profile for Taffd:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine

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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 22 20:27 UTC Short link

Mine is not UKvillages which I found pretty lame and far from sexy or even
user friendly!  We have Online Communities in our neck of the woods,
www.oncom.org.uk which is lively, local and full of flavour.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Phythian" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

I can understand Roy's figures and this point is repeatedly put even
within government but I can't see myverdict making a difference,
especially looking rather dated and not appearing to give control to
those who might develop the links. Jill's UK Villages was sexier but
couldn't find my postcode and struggled bringing York up (I got bored
waiting).

I think the media and in particular the BBC with its public service
ethos is a bet and I'm up for it. The CMS that local radio uses is
pretty cheesy and lost a lot of my data and the journos struggled using
it, so I think a better solution may go down well!

The public still have some trust in the BBC particularly in local
journalism, where it covers many local issues and is useful in the event
of a disaster - another place links come in. Why completely reinvent the
wheel - just get them a better CMS?

Mick

Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: ROY DAINE <email obscured>]
Sent: 22 February 2008 16:12
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Hi All,

  This response pertains to a point in Shane's message -

  Anecdotal research tells me that one of the reasons people don't
participate in local discussion groups (or other democratic purposes) is
because they have no discernable effect.

  One of my local councillors, when elected, polled 1,233 votes out of
2,766 cast. The voter turnout was 29.7% of the electorate.

  There are therefore about 9000 eligible voters in my ward.

  If all the citizens who voted for said councillor made their views
known to him on any one issue, they would still not constitute a
majority opinion of the will of the people.

  While he would no doubt make representation on behalf of those who
made their opinions known, he would not be obliged to support it or vote
accordingly, it being a minority opinion.(For the same reason, Downing
St. petitions can be ignored)

  However, if 4,501 people expressed a view, he would be obliged by the
council's constitution, to be an advocate of and for said opinion.

  The need then, if people actually want their opinions to have an
effect on policy, is for them to state their views in greater numbers.

  myverdict.net is set up to collect majority opinions on every issue.
It may not be the ideal but it covers the whole of the UK down to local
authority level. It could easily and quickly be extended downwards to
ward level.

  What myverdict.net needs is exposure/publicity, to let people know
that it exists. The same is true of course for any and all sites working
in this genre.

  As I see it, if the BBC wishes to continue to be funded by the public,
it has a duty to be a public service broadcaster.

  It should not be trying to compete with these websites but informing
the public of their existence and their potential for the democratic
process.

  Best Regards

  Roy

Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
you. Member profile for Taffd:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine

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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 22 20:41 UTC Short link

None of these examples are life, the universe and everything where you come
from.  What I like about Oncom's model is that it CAN be all things to all
people - across the ages and the interests - and it can link from micro to
macro, from street to countrywide if necessary.  And it admits citizen
journalists (who can choose where their news appears through the CMS), and
it has a lively discussion forum, and it brings together campaigns and local
websites, and it can incorporate special projects (eg elections, police
pages).  The possibilities are endless, as they say.  It's been done, we
done it.  I am amazed that nobody asks us or consults us because it is
holistic, interactive, empowering and the best of all things I have seen.
This is not my invention;  I just use it and participate.  It is effective
and influential - it gets things changed like the removal of public open
space under threat from council ownership to the Commons Register, and
climb-downs on parking restrictions, for example - which is why our local
authority does not like it one bit.  I think they wish it wasn't Richmond
upon Thames to be the only council to have to live with it!  Be great for
local people if more councils had to live with an Oncom.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Taylor-Smith, Ella" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Hi,
I think there's a lot to be said for initiatives based on the
relationship between media organisations and e-democracy-type groups.
(Though the media organisations need some sort of public service remit
to inspire them here.)

One example of this (admittedly in the U.S. where this public service
remit is written into many organisations constitution) is Newz Crew
http://newzcrew.org/
A discussion forum based on 'youth circles' (inspired by Weblab's Small
Group Dialogues ). Newz Crew uses the Internet and news media to develop
and promote media literacy and youth engagement in the democratic
process.
People register and are allocated discussion groups. Discussion groups
exists for a preset amount of time - though the group can vote to
continue.
News items are posted on the website and group discussions are mostly
based on these items. Group members can start new topics for their
group.
Featured discussions are shown on the website.

* Participants come from all over the world, though the
organisation is U.S. - based. There is also a U.S. slant to the news and
topics
* Participants should be between 14 and 19 years old
The project is run by Global Kids and NewsHour Extra.
* Global Kids  is a New York City-based educational organisation
that supports urban youth to become global citizens and community
leaders.
* NewsHour Extra  is the student section of the Online NewsHour,
- a PBS news program. PBS is a non-profit media organisation.
http://weblab.org/
  http://www.globalkids.org/
  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/
I think it's significant that this is aimed at young people...

Also, a project that I'm involved in is trying to create e-participation
processes in Serbia, Albania and Macedonia, by working in partnership
with their national news agencies.
http://www.web-dep.eu/
The idea is that the news agencies have the contacts (journalists,
experts and government) to create good content to support discussions,
to involve government and NGO reps and to track the influence.
I think this is another interesting tangent to the this discussion which
wouldn't work here because of our more developed Internet culture.

-Ella
Ella Taylor-Smith

International Teledemocracy Centre
Napier University
10 Colinton Road
Edinburgh, EH10 5DT

Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 22 20:45 UTC Short link

Absolutely agree, Andy, though funnily enough in our case it isn't true. We
have the ideas and the expertise technically, artistically and
journalistically, but it is reliant on too few and that makes for a
sustainability problem.  I have trained something like 30 local people in
how to use our news system, which has removed a lot of pressure by spreading
the load where it comes to content.
Jill, Oncom

From: Mick Date: 2008 Feb 22 21:35 UTC Short link

Sorry Jill, it was ellie! I think oncom looks incredibly professional
but I'm not sure that model will fit in with the small parish but I
suspect ukvillages will.

OK it doesn't have the pzazz of oncom but in very rural areas I'm not
sure that's currently necessary - I'm talking here rural north
yorkshire, not west london...

Mick

-----Original Message-----
From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
Sent: 22 February 2008 20:27
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Mine is not UKvillages which I found pretty lame and far from sexy or
even
user friendly!  We have Online Communities in our neck of the woods,
www.oncom.org.uk which is lively, local and full of flavour.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Phythian" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

I can understand Roy's figures and this point is repeatedly put even
within government but I can't see myverdict making a difference,
especially looking rather dated and not appearing to give control to
those who might develop the links. Jill's UK Villages was sexier but
couldn't find my postcode and struggled bringing York up (I got bored
waiting).

I think the media and in particular the BBC with its public service
ethos is a bet and I'm up for it. The CMS that local radio uses is
pretty cheesy and lost a lot of my data and the journos struggled using
it, so I think a better solution may go down well!

The public still have some trust in the BBC particularly in local
journalism, where it covers many local issues and is useful in the event
of a disaster - another place links come in. Why completely reinvent the
wheel - just get them a better CMS?

Mick

Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: ROY DAINE <email obscured>]
Sent: 22 February 2008 16:12
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Hi All,

  This response pertains to a point in Shane's message -

  Anecdotal research tells me that one of the reasons people don't
participate in local discussion groups (or other democratic purposes) is
because they have no discernable effect.

  One of my local councillors, when elected, polled 1,233 votes out of
2,766 cast. The voter turnout was 29.7% of the electorate.

  There are therefore about 9000 eligible voters in my ward.

  If all the citizens who voted for said councillor made their views
known to him on any one issue, they would still not constitute a
majority opinion of the will of the people.

  While he would no doubt make representation on behalf of those who
made their opinions known, he would not be obliged to support it or vote
accordingly, it being a minority opinion.(For the same reason, Downing
St. petitions can be ignored)

  However, if 4,501 people expressed a view, he would be obliged by the
council's constitution, to be an advocate of and for said opinion.

  The need then, if people actually want their opinions to have an
effect on policy, is for them to state their views in greater numbers.

  myverdict.net is set up to collect majority opinions on every issue.
It may not be the ideal but it covers the whole of the UK down to local
authority level. It could easily and quickly be extended downwards to
ward level.

  What myverdict.net needs is exposure/publicity, to let people know
that it exists. The same is true of course for any and all sites working
in this genre.

  As I see it, if the BBC wishes to continue to be funded by the public,
it has a duty to be a public service broadcaster.

  It should not be trying to compete with these websites but informing
the public of their existence and their potential for the democratic
process.

  Best Regards

  Roy

Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns
you. Member profile for Taffd:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/roydaine

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From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 22 22:27 UTC Short link

Jill,
  What you say about oncom is equally true of myverdict.net, though, while
oncom caters for 14 communities, myverdict caters for over 25,000. This will
increase within the next couple of weeks to around 36,000, over 10,000 for the
UK alone.

  In 10 years you appear to have registered 713 people, not quite the roaring
success you would have us believe.

  I grant you the site looks very nice, though there is a lot of duplicated
content(equally true of myverdict)

  What I've said previously holds true. All the sites in this genre need more
users. A lot more.

  I don't particularly care which site 'takes off' eventually, I just want more
public participation in the decision making process.

  I would like to wish all e-democracy sites well.

  But most of all, I would like to see a community, somewhere, at whatever
level, find a majority opinion that would oblige the representative of that
community to vote on its behalf.
  Having been done once, it would stand as an example to others and we might
look forward to happier times.

  Best Regards

  Roy


Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.

From: James Gilmour Date: 2008 Feb 24 00:02 UTC Short link

ROY DAINE  > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
>   But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the elected
member is a "representative" and not  a "delegate" and
certainly not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a local
referendum on capital punishment (death penalty).  It is
quite possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment.
But it is quite proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring
capital punishment in any vote in the Parliament.  The
MP might reasonably be expected the tell the Parliament that in a local
referendum a majority (overwhelming majority ?) of voters
had voted to restore capital punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise
his or her personal judgement on such an issue.  Of
course, the voters would be perfectly at liberty to vote that MP out at the
next election, but that is very different from
suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote in particular way
because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote) in
the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful.  Votes by MPs in the UK Parliament and
opinion polls of the UK general public have
frequently shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against
the wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Mick Date: 2008 Feb 24 09:36 UTC Short link

...and further to that politicians are quite aware that they work in a
representative democracy and will resist any thing that might
demonstrate where a majority, particularly in a single issue campain,
oppose the representative view...

This is frequently why they resist anything with an e- in front!

Mick Phythian
Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: James Gilmour <email obscured>]
Sent: 23 February 2008 23:23
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE  > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
>   But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the
elected member is a "representative" and not  a "delegate" and certainly
not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a
local referendum on capital punishment (death penalty).  It is quite
possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment. But it is quite
proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring capital
punishment in any vote in the Parliament.  The MP might reasonably be
expected the tell the Parliament that in a local referendum a majority
(overwhelming majority ?) of voters had voted to restore capital
punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise his or her personal
judgement on such an issue.  Of course, the voters would be perfectly at
liberty to vote that MP out at the next election, but that is very
different from suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote
in particular way because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote)
in the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful.  Votes by MPs in the UK
Parliament and opinion polls of the UK general public have frequently
shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against the
wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 24 13:43 UTC Short link

Hi all,

  The fact that representatives do not and need not heed the will of the
majority, does not make this right. It just happens to be the way it is.

  Anybody is free to agree with the system of representative parliamentary
democracy we have at present.

  I am one of the people who do not.

  To take the death penalty issue as an example - If everybody in the UK,
except for MPs, were in favour of the death penalty, why should 640 odd MPs
decide we are wrong.

  Now it may be that in the UK, more people are in favour of the status quo
than of any alternate system. The point is nobody knows. Brits then, are denied
their inalienable right, under international law, to self-determination.

  This is one area where the people have the right to decide. The right does
not flow to nations or governments. Representatives, whatever they may be
called, cannot exrecise this right on our behalf.

  Also, were the people to decide that the status quo was the desired system of
governance, we would be better off finding a system that elevated the best of
our people to office. It is readily apparent that, at present, our MPs could in
no way be considered the finest among us.
  For an alternative system of selecting our leaders, have a read of the
following article.

  http://www.myverdict.net/articles/intarticle.php?articleID=11

  regards to all

  Roy

Mick Phythian <email obscured>> wrote:
  ...and further to that politicians are quite aware that they work in a
representative democracy and will resist any thing that might
demonstrate where a majority, particularly in a single issue campain,
oppose the representative view...

This is frequently why they resist anything with an e- in front!

Mick Phythian
Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: James Gilmour <email obscured>]
Sent: 23 February 2008 23:23
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
> But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the
elected member is a "representative" and not a "delegate" and certainly
not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a
local referendum on capital punishment (death penalty). It is quite
possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment. But it is quite
proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring capital
punishment in any vote in the Parliament. The MP might reasonably be
expected the tell the Parliament that in a local referendum a majority
(overwhelming majority ?) of voters had voted to restore capital
punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise his or her personal
judgement on such an issue. Of course, the voters would be perfectly at
liberty to vote that MP out at the next election, but that is very
different from suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote
in particular way because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote)
in the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful. Votes by MPs in the UK
Parliament and opinion polls of the UK general public have frequently
shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against the
wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 24 13:46 UTC Short link

I must add a bit to my last maily -

  At a local level in the UK, according to their constitutions, councillors
have a duty to advocate of and for the views of their constituents. This means
that if a majority view can be ascertained, the councillor MUST support that
view.

  Roy

Mick Phythian <email obscured>> wrote:
  ...and further to that politicians are quite aware that they work in a
representative democracy and will resist any thing that might
demonstrate where a majority, particularly in a single issue campain,
oppose the representative view...

This is frequently why they resist anything with an e- in front!

Mick Phythian
Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: James Gilmour <email obscured>]
Sent: 23 February 2008 23:23
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
> But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the
elected member is a "representative" and not a "delegate" and certainly
not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a
local referendum on capital punishment (death penalty). It is quite
possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment. But it is quite
proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring capital
punishment in any vote in the Parliament. The MP might reasonably be
expected the tell the Parliament that in a local referendum a majority
(overwhelming majority ?) of voters had voted to restore capital
punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise his or her personal
judgement on such an issue. Of course, the voters would be perfectly at
liberty to vote that MP out at the next election, but that is very
different from suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote
in particular way because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote)
in the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful. Votes by MPs in the UK
Parliament and opinion polls of the UK general public have frequently
shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against the
wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 24 16:20 UTC Short link

Funny you should say that, Roy, because with one of our local issues, that
featured large online, the ward member refused to communicate with
campaigners even though it was clear there was overwhelming support for the
removal of a Guantanamo style fence enclosing an area on a local park,
erected without anybody knowing it was coming.  Whether e-communication, or
in person, or by letter, or on the phone, the councillors cut the local
people off.  Nevertheless, it was in the end a great victory for local
people who got the land (all 60acres of it) removed from council ownership
and put on the commons register. It is now the biggest village green in
England, I think.  However, this was without any representation from their
local councillors!  That was one controversy that without Online
Communities' network would undoubtedly have had a different outcome.  The
residents used the websites very effectively and intelligently.  Their open
space is safe now, in perpetuity!  This means of successful opposition is,
of course, not popular with the council....
Best wishes, Jill, www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

I must add a bit to my last maily -

  At a local level in the UK, according to their constitutions, councillors
have a duty to advocate of and for the views of their constituents. This
means that if a majority view can be ascertained, the councillor MUST
support that view.

  Roy

Mick Phythian <email obscured>> wrote:
  ...and further to that politicians are quite aware that they work in a
representative democracy and will resist any thing that might
demonstrate where a majority, particularly in a single issue campain,
oppose the representative view...

This is frequently why they resist anything with an e- in front!

Mick Phythian
Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: James Gilmour <email obscured>]
Sent: 23 February 2008 23:23
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
> But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the
elected member is a "representative" and not a "delegate" and certainly
not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a
local referendum on capital punishment (death penalty). It is quite
possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment. But it is quite
proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring capital
punishment in any vote in the Parliament. The MP might reasonably be
expected the tell the Parliament that in a local referendum a majority
(overwhelming majority ?) of voters had voted to restore capital
punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise his or her personal
judgement on such an issue. Of course, the voters would be perfectly at
liberty to vote that MP out at the next election, but that is very
different from suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote
in particular way because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote)
in the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful. Votes by MPs in the UK
Parliament and opinion polls of the UK general public have frequently
shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against the
wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 24 16:46 UTC Short link

Excellent Jill,
  I can see nothing in this decision, made by the people, that could be
considered mob rule. A decision arrived at by the community, of benefit to the
community. What reason is there to suppose that the councilllors 'knew better'
than the community on this issue? - None - and I would argue that the community
are quite capable and as capable as councillors, of paricipating in the
formulation of policy and decision making.

  e-democracy gives us the tool to do this.

  On the particular issue of your open space, there may be possible legal
implications, if your council refused to take note of residents. I would check
on your council's constitution. If, as I believe, they had a duty to be
advocates of and for their constituents views, I would lodge a formal complaint
and use this to gain press coverage for oncom.org and its efficacy.

  All the Best

  Roy
  myverdict.net

Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
  Funny you should say that, Roy, because with one of our local issues, that
featured large online, the ward member refused to communicate with
campaigners even though it was clear there was overwhelming support for the
removal of a Guantanamo style fence enclosing an area on a local park,
erected without anybody knowing it was coming. Whether e-communication, or
in person, or by letter, or on the phone, the councillors cut the local
people off. Nevertheless, it was in the end a great victory for local
people who got the land (all 60acres of it) removed from council ownership
and put on the commons register. It is now the biggest village green in
England, I think. However, this was without any representation from their
local councillors! That was one controversy that without Online
Communities' network would undoubtedly have had a different outcome. The
residents used the websites very effectively and intelligently. Their open
space is safe now, in perpetuity! This means of successful opposition is,
of course, not popular with the council....
Best wishes, Jill, www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE"
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

I must add a bit to my last maily -

At a local level in the UK, according to their constitutions, councillors
have a duty to advocate of and for the views of their constituents. This
means that if a majority view can be ascertained, the councillor MUST
support that view.

Roy

Mick Phythian wrote:
...and further to that politicians are quite aware that they work in a
representative democracy and will resist any thing that might
demonstrate where a majority, particularly in a single issue campain,
oppose the representative view...

This is frequently why they resist anything with an e- in front!

Mick Phythian
Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: James Gilmour <email obscured>]
Sent: 23 February 2008 23:23
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
> But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the
elected member is a "representative" and not a "delegate" and certainly
not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a
local referendum on capital punishment (death penalty). It is quite
possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment. But it is quite
proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring capital
punishment in any vote in the Parliament. The MP might reasonably be
expected the tell the Parliament that in a local referendum a majority
(overwhelming majority ?) of voters had voted to restore capital
punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise his or her personal
judgement on such an issue. Of course, the voters would be perfectly at
liberty to vote that MP out at the next election, but that is very
different from suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote
in particular way because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote)
in the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful. Votes by MPs in the UK
Parliament and opinion polls of the UK general public have frequently
shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against the
wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 24 17:41 UTC Short link

The residents took the Buckingham Fields open space issue, and lack of
councillor representation (let alone support), to the Ombudsman but it got
them nowhere, Roy. This isn't surprising.  If you know anything about these
"watchdogs" you soon come to realise they are nothing more than "lapdogs".
It's all one cosy civil servant club, is the impression I get from
experience and observation.

However, the residents do have a complaint lodged with the information
commissioner (who is commendably independent - so far) and they are hoping
for a hearing on something they believe to be a matter of principal.  This
is the council's insistence on lumping everyone into one group - more than
400 people signing a petition, and 70 submitting evidence commons
registration questionnaires about using the open space for recreation and
leisure for more than 20 years. This is called aggregation and it means that
once one person has reached their 18 hours of officer time, nobody from "the
group" is entitled to further information under the Act for several months.
Of course, the council had all these names.  The residents argue that they
acted, in signing petitions and submitting evidence questionnaires, in their
rights as individuals.  I agree with this;  you must submit evidence
questionnaires, for example, as indiviiduals and users of the open space in
question, you cannot do it "as a group".  We will follow this at Oncom and I
hope they get a full hearing at an open tribunal where I can attend, perhaps
give evidence, and certainly take a record for publication on the network.
All very interesting!

Our council doesn't accuse the residents of "mob rule" so much as making too
much noise.  Councillors and officers claim to speak for the inarticulate,
the silent majority, etc.  With so large a group of residents of all ages
and kinds, I found this assertion arrogant, patronising and plain
inaccurate, and divisive.

The other thing to come out of all this is a scrutiny task group, set up by
the Environment Overview and Scrutiny Committee at LBRuT, to look iinto what
went wrong with Buckingham Fields open space.  I am a member of that task
group and it will publish the report very soon.  We interviewed 21 people -
council officers, school govs, councillors, residents, even the chief
executive.  Absolutely fascinating!  .

The power of the local web is empowering, I find.

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

Excellent Jill,
  I can see nothing in this decision, made by the people, that could be
considered mob rule. A decision arrived at by the community, of benefit to
the community. What reason is there to suppose that the councilllors 'knew
better' than the community on this issue? - None - and I would argue that
the community are quite capable and as capable as councillors, of
paricipating in the formulation of policy and decision making.

  e-democracy gives us the tool to do this.

  On the particular issue of your open space, there may be possible legal
implications, if your council refused to take note of residents. I would
check on your council's constitution. If, as I believe, they had a duty to
be advocates of and for their constituents views, I would lodge a formal
complaint and use this to gain press coverage for oncom.org and its
efficacy.

  All the Best

  Roy
  myverdict.net

Jill Sanders <email obscured>> wrote:
  Funny you should say that, Roy, because with one of our local issues, that
featured large online, the ward member refused to communicate with
campaigners even though it was clear there was overwhelming support for the
removal of a Guantanamo style fence enclosing an area on a local park,
erected without anybody knowing it was coming. Whether e-communication, or
in person, or by letter, or on the phone, the councillors cut the local
people off. Nevertheless, it was in the end a great victory for local
people who got the land (all 60acres of it) removed from council ownership
and put on the commons register. It is now the biggest village green in
England, I think. However, this was without any representation from their
local councillors! That was one controversy that without Online
Communities' network would undoubtedly have had a different outcome. The
residents used the websites very effectively and intelligently. Their open
space is safe now, in perpetuity! This means of successful opposition is,
of course, not popular with the council....
Best wishes, Jill, www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE"
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

I must add a bit to my last maily -

At a local level in the UK, according to their constitutions, councillors
have a duty to advocate of and for the views of their constituents. This
means that if a majority view can be ascertained, the councillor MUST
support that view.

Roy

Mick Phythian wrote:
...and further to that politicians are quite aware that they work in a
representative democracy and will resist any thing that might
demonstrate where a majority, particularly in a single issue campain,
oppose the representative view...

This is frequently why they resist anything with an e- in front!

Mick Phythian
Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: James Gilmour <email obscured>]
Sent: 23 February 2008 23:23
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE > Sent: 22 February 2008 22:28
> But most of all, I would like to see a community,
> somewhere, at whatever level, find a majority opinion that
> would oblige the representative of that community to vote on
> its behalf.

This should not happen in a "representative democracy", because the
elected member is a "representative" and not a "delegate" and certainly
not a "mandated delegate".

Consider a UK Parliamentary (Westminster) constituency which held a
local referendum on capital punishment (death penalty). It is quite
possible that the turnout would be high and that a substantial majority
would vote in favour of restoring capital punishment. But it is quite
proper that the elected MP should then vote against restoring capital
punishment in any vote in the Parliament. The MP might reasonably be
expected the tell the Parliament that in a local referendum a majority
(overwhelming majority ?) of voters had voted to restore capital
punishment, but that MP should be free to exercise his or her personal
judgement on such an issue. Of course, the voters would be perfectly at
liberty to vote that MP out at the next election, but that is very
different from suggesting the elected member should be obliged to vote
in particular way because of some referendum vote (or e-democracy vote)
in the relevant constituency.

This example is not extreme or fanciful. Votes by MPs in the UK
Parliament and opinion polls of the UK general public have frequently
shown that a majority of the MPs have voted, and will vote, against the
wishes of popular opinion on this topic.

James Gilmour

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From: Pete Thomson Date: 2008 Feb 25 15:20 UTC Short link

Taffd wrote:

> At a local level in the UK, according to their constitutions, councillors
> have a duty to advocate of and for the views of their constituents. This
means
> that if a majority view can be ascertained, the councillor MUST support that
> view.

That's a misinterpretation of the words.

What my council's constitution says (pretty standard) is:

> All councillors will ... represent their communities and bring their views
into
> the Councils decision-making process, i.e. become the advocate of and for
their
> communities.

This forms part of the description of "key roles of councillors". It's not
expressed as a "duty", and it's not part of the requirements of the
councillor's Code of Conduct.

So councillors are expected to bring the views of their communities to the
decision-making process, which I would think implies understanding what they
are and communicating them fairly to those making the decisions; but they are
representatives, not delegates, so as James pointed out they are not required
to support those views. Ignoring the views of a large enough proportion of
their communities, on one or more sufficiently significant issues, would
probably mean they would not be re-elected, but that's the only mechanism to
deal with a representative who does not support community views - no legal
process or ombudsman can intervene.

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 25 15:54 UTC Short link

Hi Pete,

  'All councillors will' - This doesn't appear to offer a choice. I therefore
deem it a duty.

  Definition of advocate -
  To speak, plead, or argue in favor of.
    1. One that argues for a cause; a supporter or defender
  2. One that pleads in another's behalf; an intercessor
  3. A lawyer.

  The word advocate in council constitutions implies that the councillor will
argue in favour of the expressed views of his constituents. If a councillor is
unable to fulfill his 'role' as a councillor, he should resign.

  I would argue that if there are a number of conflicting views, the councillor
should put them all forward for consideration.

  If however there is a clear majority view, then that should be the view that
he advocates, while also putting forward any opposing views for consideration.
But he should support the majority view.

  Any councillor who considers a majority view has no standing should resign,
as this is incompatible with his own election to office.

  An argument that says majorities are only pertinent at election time, has no
merit.

  I'm getting heartily sick of the idea that I'm only allowed to choose who
controls me.

  Either these constitutions have some sort of legal standing or they merely
pay lip service to the ideas expressed within and have been designed to dupe
the public.

  You can't have it both ways.

  Regards

  Roy

Pete Thomson <email obscured>> wrote:

  Taffd wrote:

> At a local level in the UK, according to their constitutions, councillors
> have a duty to advocate of and for the views of their constituents. This
means
> that if a majority view can be ascertained, the councillor MUST support that
> view.

That's a misinterpretation of the words.

What my council's constitution says (pretty standard) is:

> All councillors will ... represent their communities and bring their views
into
> the Councils decision-making process, i.e. become the advocate of and for
their
> communities.

This forms part of the description of "key roles of councillors". It's not
expressed as a "duty", and it's not part of the requirements of the
councillor's Code of Conduct.

So councillors are expected to bring the views of their communities to the
decision-making process, which I would think implies understanding what they
are and communicating them fairly to those making the decisions; but they are
representatives, not delegates, so as James pointed out they are not required
to support those views. Ignoring the views of a large enough proportion of
their communities, on one or more sufficiently significant issues, would
probably mean they would not be re-elected, but that's the only mechanism to
deal with a representative who does not support community views - no legal
process or ombudsman can intervene.

Member profile for Pete Thomson:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/petethomson

From: Alan Connor Date: 2008 Feb 25 15:57 UTC Short link

@David: It's not quite a matter of putting bbccouk as a tag - the links in that
sidebar are gently hand-picked by Nick Reynolds and me. But marking something
for:bbccouk in del.icio.us, or leavbing a comment at the BBC Internet Blog, or
emailing me directly are all very good things which we would eagerly welcome
happening as often as poss.

@Stephen: funnily enough, I dropped you a line about the Digital Democracy
plans a few weeks ago, but I think I must have an out-of-date institutional
email address for you. My bad.

@Tom - I too am onpassing details, not being a power-that-be myself. Localness
is unlikely to be a big part of Phase One of the Beeb's Digital Democracy
plans, but as I understand it, one long-term aim would be embrace openness in a
way that aids those initiatives that are up and running well.

All comments, however speculative are very welcome, and the best place at the
moment is http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/02/digital_democracy.html

From: James Gilmour Date: 2008 Feb 25 16:37 UTC Short link

ROY DAINE > Sent: 25 February 2008 15:55
>   The word advocate in council constitutions implies that the
> councillor will argue in favour of the expressed views of his
> constituents. If a councillor is unable to fulfil his 'role'
> as a councillor, he should resign.

But in all of this we have also to remember that a councillor has two
"responsibilities":
1. as a ward councillor, to the voters who elected him/her (multi-member STV
wards now in Scotland).
2. as a member of the council as a corporate body, to the wider community
served by the whole council.

Sometimes what is in the best interests of the ward (as seen by a majority of
voters in that ward) may not coincide with what is in
the best interests of the wider community.  We expect councillors to balance
these competing claims, but they will be held
accountable for their decisions and that judgement may be harsh.

James

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From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 25 17:28 UTC Short link

Hi James,

  Let's assume that like my council, there are 66 councillors. 2 councillors
for my ward advocate the majority view of the constituents of my ward. The
other 64 councillors advocate the majority view of their own wards.

  Let's also assume that full consultation and debate has arrived at these
majority views.

  Assuming no further points are brought forward which might add to or change
opinions, the councillors now vote according to the majority opinions and the
motion passes or fails.

  Even if every councillor personally disagrees with the outcome, they are
merely 66 among 200,000+. I cannot accept the proposition that, because they
were elected, these councillors somehow know better.

  If the residents of any ward are unable or unwilling to express a majority
view then the councillors of that ward should then make their own decisions.

  By a majority view, I mean a majority of the electorate of a ward, not a
majority of those who choose to participate.

  eg. My ward has an electorate of about 9,000. A majority view would therefore
be the view of 4,501.
  This would be a greater majority that the ones that saw my councillors
elected.

  By the way folks, I expect my views to be challenged. I welcome it. I revel
in reasoned, coherent debate.

  But I have yet to see an argument with sufficient merit to cause me to amend
my view.

  I shall post a link shortly, to an article from a member of a school board in
the USA, which has some relevance to this discussion.

  Regards

  Roy
James Gilmour <email obscured>> wrote:
  ROY DAINE > Sent: 25 February 2008 15:55
> The word advocate in council constitutions implies that the
> councillor will argue in favour of the expressed views of his
> constituents. If a councillor is unable to fulfil his 'role'
> as a councillor, he should resign.

But in all of this we have also to remember that a councillor has two
"responsibilities":
1. as a ward councillor, to the voters who elected him/her (multi-member STV
wards now in Scotland).
2. as a member of the council as a corporate body, to the wider community
served by the whole council.

Sometimes what is in the best interests of the ward (as seen by a majority of
voters in that ward) may not coincide with what is in
the best interests of the wider community. We expect councillors to balance
these competing claims, but they will be held
accountable for their decisions and that judgement may be harsh.

James

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From: David Newman Date: 2008 Feb 25 20:09 UTC Short link

ROY DAINE's points about majorities don't seem to distinguish the
different ways of measuring a majority, let alone techniques of finding
a consensus.

Is it a simple majority, as in first-past-the-post elections? Then if
you have 6 options, the one with the highest support may not have the
support of more than 50% of the people.

Or if you have alternative vote (or single transferable vote) among
options, you get strange effects when an option is near the quota.

In any case, you get people's first choices, what they are shouting for,
rather than the compromises you will settle for.

What I think councils should do is run preferenda (www.deborda.org).

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 25 20:46 UTC Short link

I'm sorry Dr,

  I accidentally deleted your email and didn't manage do note your name before
I did so.

  Anyway, which part of my message are you having trouble with. I explained
precisely what sort of majority I was talking about - a majority of the
electorate, which in the case of my local ward, would be 4,501 out of 9,000 or
50%+1.

  I also explained that if there was no such majority, the councillor could
then decide for himself.

  If there are 6 opinions, with an equal share of 1,500  votes each, the motion
is obviously not clear cut enough and should thus not be passed.

  Compromise, as you suggest, is merely re-consulting and refining the options
until the electorate can make a majority opinion.

  It is not always necessary to have a concensus. Sometimes it is better to do
nothing.

  As Ronald Reagan is reputed to have said to his advisers - 'Don't just do
something, stand there.'

  Regards

  Roy


Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that concerns you.

From: David Newman Date: 2008 Feb 25 21:23 UTC Short link

ROY DAINE wrote:

> If there are 6 opinions, with an equal share of 1,500  votes each,
> the motion is obviously not clear cut enough and should thus not be
> passed.
>
> Compromise, as you suggest, is merely re-consulting and refining the
> options until the electorate can make a majority opinion.

Actually, there are better methods. You can get people to rank the
options in order of preference. A republican might say: my first choice
is a united Ireland, my second choice is co-governance, my third is
power sharing devolution, and so on.

Then you can use a de Borda count to see which of the options has the
strongest preference. Simply add up the points: 1 for the last choice, 2
for the second to last and so on. Something that everyone puts second or
third will beat divisive options, where half the people put it first,
the rest put it last.

The harder problem is working out which are the half-dozen options we
can choose between. Too often councillors will discuss the first plan
put to them, without considering alternatives.

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 25 21:59 UTC Short link

A councillor may have several roles:  as a ward member representing
residents, as a cabinet member with a specific portfolio, as a member of a
political party with a loyalty to manifesto and policy promises, as an LEA
representative on local things like school governing bodies, charities,
etc., etc.  There are often inherent conflicts and the councillor will
choose which suit his agenda best, I find, be that political or field of
interest
Jill, www.oncom.org.uk

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 25 22:01 UTC Short link

I hope the BBC localness takes community netwrks like ours into
consideration. I've never been able to raise the least interest in
www.oncom.org.uk

From: Mick Date: 2008 Feb 26 07:53 UTC Short link

With politics, Politics and other matters decision makingis not as
straightforward as it might seem. This is the challenge for e-democracy
for groups to express their opinion without being a overpoowering
minority and for politicians to canvass for a true range of opinions and
then operating upon that.

Having said that, they are still politicians and whilst party politics
operate at a local level, it and power struggles will have an effect!

Mick

Member profile for Mick Phythian:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/mickphythian

-----Original Message-----
From: Jill Sanders <email obscured>]
Sent: 25 February 2008 22:00
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

A councillor may have several roles:  as a ward member representing
residents, as a cabinet member with a specific portfolio, as a member of
a
political party with a loyalty to manifesto and policy promises, as an
LEA
representative on local things like school governing bodies, charities,
etc., etc.  There are often inherent conflicts and the councillor will
choose which suit his agenda best, I find, be that political or field of

interest
Jill, www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Gilmour" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

ROY DAINE > Sent: 25 February 2008 15:55
>   The word advocate in council constitutions implies that the
> councillor will argue in favour of the expressed views of his
> constituents. If a councillor is unable to fulfil his 'role' as a
> councillor, he should resign.

But in all of this we have also to remember that a councillor has two
"responsibilities":
1. as a ward councillor, to the voters who elected him/her (multi-member
STV
wards now in Scotland).
2. as a member of the council as a corporate body, to the wider
community
served by the whole council.

Sometimes what is in the best interests of the ward (as seen by a
majority
of voters in that ward) may not coincide with what is in
the best interests of the wider community.  We expect councillors to
balance
these competing claims, but they will be held
accountable for their decisions and that judgement may be harsh.

James

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From: Pete Thomson Date: 2008 Feb 26 09:23 UTC Short link

Some other considerations, besides those that others have already mentioned,
that make Roy's model problematical:

* Councils have limited legal powers. However strongly the local community
wants it to do something, and however much the councillors support that view,
if it's beyond the council's powers they can't do it. A councillor who voted to
do it anyway would be personally liable - that's part of their accountability.

* The views of communities, and even individuals, may not be internally
consistent. For instance, we ran a consultation exercise some years ago that
identified some services that the community wanted us to spend more on, and
showed there were none that they wanted to spend less on, but they didn't want
the council tax to rise. It's impossible for a councillor to support that
combination of views.

* The premise that a majority of the electorate have expressed support for a
given policy is not realistic. The majority don't vote in local elections, and
even a long-established, well-supported forum like Oncom doesn't generate
participation (let alone consensus) of the majority of the electorate. Roy
concedes that in this situation the councillors have to decide for themselves.
That's the real world, so far.

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Feb 26 11:17 UTC Short link

This discussion is now a top item on the BBC Internet blog
http://tinyurl.com/27gwht

David

On 26 Feb 2008, at 09:24, Pete Thomson wrote:

> Some other considerations, besides those that others have already
> mentioned, that make Roy's model problematical:
>
> * Councils have limited legal powers. However strongly the local
> community wants it to do something, and however much the councillors
> support that view, if it's beyond the council's powers they can't do
> it. A councillor who voted to do it anyway would be personally
> liable - that's part of their accountability.
>
> * The views of communities, and even individuals, may not be
> internally consistent. For instance, we ran a consultation exercise
> some years ago that identified some services that the community
> wanted us to spend more on, and showed there were none that they
> wanted to spend less on, but they didn't want the council tax to
> rise. It's impossible for a councillor to support that combination
> of views.
>
> * The premise that a majority of the electorate have expressed
> support for a given policy is not realistic. The majority don't vote
> in local elections, and even a long-established, well-supported
> forum like Oncom doesn't generate participation (let alone
> consensus) of the majority of the electorate. Roy concedes that in
> this situation the councillors have to decide for themselves. That's
> the real world, so far.
>
>
> Member profile for Pete Thomson:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/petethomson
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
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From: Barbara Farbey Date: 2008 Feb 26 17:35 UTC Short link

1. David Newman is quite right. There are numbers of ways of converting
individual preferences into an acceptable social decision - in fact there's
a whole academic literature on the subject - Social Choice. I find the
papers and books a little hard-going, but  would be grateful if David could
pre-digest some of
the stuff on our behalf.

2. What seems to be missing from the posts so far is the idea that
representatives are supposed to listen to the debate in the Council chamber,
or Parliament or whatever, and then use their judgement as to the value of
the arguments before casting a vote. It's not that they know more than we
do, its that they have deliberated on the issue, heard the arguments for and
against, heard their constituents and balanced the whole lot according to
their own judgement (Edmund Burke said the same thing rather better!)

3. We also need to remember that democracy (e democracy or otherwise) is not
a single idea, but works differently in different places and at diferent
times. David Held's book "Models of Democracy" (Polity Press, Cambridge,
2006) is a standard text book and  pretty readable of its kind.


Barbara Farbey

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Feb 26 19:17 UTC Short link

It seems to me that para 2 is what the discussion's all about.

  Re Parliament. In the last ten years, 98% of new laws, over 26,000, have been
placed on the statute book by statutory instrument. Simply nodded through. No
consultation, no debate, no arguments and no vote.
  Will everybody please try and understand - MPs do not represent constituents,
they are representative of a constituency, a geographical area. When you elect
anyone to office, you elect them to make decisions on your behalf.

  The only way to influence things is with a display of overwhelming public
outcry, sufficient to make them fear for their seats. An example of this would
be the poll tax and its consequences.

  e-democracy

  Before the advent of the interweb, there was no practical way for a large
number of people to debate any issue. If a meeting was attended by 500 people,
it was impossible for them all to have their views heard and debated.

  With e-democracy, each of those people can air and debate their views,
without the adverse effects of the dynamics of meetings. Therefore, the debate
on an issue can be from many more perspectives and the possible consequences of
any decision, more fully explored.

  With e-democracy we could have real direct democracy, if we wished to have
it. As a complete system designed from scratch, it has never been tried, so all
statements regarding its efficacy are merely conjecture.

  Roy

Farbey <email obscured>> wrote:
  1. David Newman is quite right. There are numbers of ways of converting
individual preferences into an acceptable social decision - in fact there's
a whole academic literature on the subject - Social Choice. I find the
papers and books a little hard-going, but would be grateful if David could
pre-digest some of
the stuff on our behalf.

2. What seems to be missing from the posts so far is the idea that
representatives are supposed to listen to the debate in the Council chamber,
or Parliament or whatever, and then use their judgement as to the value of
the arguments before casting a vote. It's not that they know more than we
do, its that they have deliberated on the issue, heard the arguments for and
against, heard their constituents and balanced the whole lot according to
their own judgement (Edmund Burke said the same thing rather better!)

3. We also need to remember that democracy (e democracy or otherwise) is not
a single idea, but works differently in different places and at diferent
times. David Held's book "Models of Democracy" (Polity Press, Cambridge,
2006) is a standard text book and pretty readable of its kind.


Barbara Farbey



Member profile for Barbara Farbey:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/barbarafarbey

From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 26 22:39 UTC Short link

My experience tells me that if you want to influence politicians "against
the grain", it is very, very hard work.  It requires persistence and
strength, and even so it may not be sufficient.  Luck too is needed.  We
must not confuse politics with democracy.  Again, from experience, I would
say that politics is the antithesis of democracy because it is limited,
blinkered and partisan - harsh, but true!
Jill www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROY DAINE" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

It seems to me that para 2 is what the discussion's all about.

  Re Parliament. In the last ten years, 98% of new laws, over 26,000, have
been placed on the statute book by statutory instrument. Simply nodded
through. No consultation, no debate, no arguments and no vote.
  Will everybody please try and understand - MPs do not represent
constituents, they are representative of a constituency, a geographical
area. When you elect anyone to office, you elect them to make decisions on
your behalf.

  The only way to influence things is with a display of overwhelming public
outcry, sufficient to make them fear for their seats. An example of this
would be the poll tax and its consequences.

  e-democracy

  Before the advent of the interweb, there was no practical way for a large
number of people to debate any issue. If a meeting was attended by 500
people, it was impossible for them all to have their views heard and
debated.

  With e-democracy, each of those people can air and debate their views,
without the adverse effects of the dynamics of meetings. Therefore, the
debate on an issue can be from many more perspectives and the possible
consequences of any decision, more fully explored.

  With e-democracy we could have real direct democracy, if we wished to have
it. As a complete system designed from scratch, it has never been tried, so
all statements regarding its efficacy are merely conjecture.

  Roy

Farbey <email obscured>> wrote:
  1. David Newman is quite right. There are numbers of ways of converting
individual preferences into an acceptable social decision - in fact there's
a whole academic literature on the subject - Social Choice. I find the
papers and books a little hard-going, but would be grateful if David could
pre-digest some of
the stuff on our behalf.

2. What seems to be missing from the posts so far is the idea that
representatives are supposed to listen to the debate in the Council chamber,
or Parliament or whatever, and then use their judgement as to the value of
the arguments before casting a vote. It's not that they know more than we
do, its that they have deliberated on the issue, heard the arguments for and
against, heard their constituents and balanced the whole lot according to
their own judgement (Edmund Burke said the same thing rather better!)

3. We also need to remember that democracy (e democracy or otherwise) is not
a single idea, but works differently in different places and at diferent
times. David Held's book "Models of Democracy" (Polity Press, Cambridge,
2006) is a standard text book and pretty readable of its kind.

Barbara Farbey

Member profile for Barbara Farbey:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/barbarafarbey

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From: Jill Sanders Date: 2008 Feb 26 22:44 UTC Short link

I don't know if Barbara has spent any time recently in a council chamber,
but if so, she will not find intelligent debate there.  In fact, these days,
with the cabinet system, there is very little debate at all.  There is quite
a bit of braying and political bandying of fairly insulting but not at all
humorous badinage which hacks observers off who have made it all the way to
the public gallery.  If you want to see the state of local democracy as it
really is, do go to your local council chamber for a meeting of your Full
Council.  The only matters of any interest are those raised by the general
public in public questions, to which the answers are inevitably superficial
and unsatisfactory.  Check it out!  Jill, www.oncom.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Farbey" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [UKIE-EDem] BBC local online plans and e-democracy

1. David Newman is quite right. There are numbers of ways of converting
individual preferences into an acceptable social decision - in fact there's
a whole academic literature on the subject - Social Choice. I find the
papers and books a little hard-going, but  would be grateful if David could
pre-digest some of
the stuff on our behalf.

2. What seems to be missing from the posts so far is the idea that
representatives are supposed to listen to the debate in the Council chamber,
or Parliament or whatever, and then use their judgement as to the value of
the arguments before casting a vote. It's not that they know more than we
do, its that they have deliberated on the issue, heard the arguments for and
against, heard their constituents and balanced the whole lot according to
their own judgement (Edmund Burke said the same thing rather better!)

3. We also need to remember that democracy (e democracy or otherwise) is not
a single idea, but works differently in different places and at diferent
times. David Held's book "Models of Democracy" (Polity Press, Cambridge,
2006) is a standard text book and  pretty readable of its kind.

Barbara Farbey

Member profile for Barbara Farbey:
http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/barbarafarbey

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From: Pete Thomson Date: 2008 Feb 27 09:21 UTC Short link

Roy wrote:

> With e-democracy we could have real direct democracy, if we wished to have
> it. As a complete system designed from scratch, it has never been tried, so
all
> statements regarding its efficacy are merely conjecture.

Precisely. Even the first sentence in that quote is merely conjecture - it has
never been demonstrated that such a system is workable.

Obviously it's unlikely that those who hold power (and responsibility) under
the present system will support designing and testing such an alternative.
Apart from self-interest, they can advance perfectly good reasons for opposing
it - like the risk that it would collapse into chaos.

If you believe in direct democracy, then one more feasible route towards it
might be to work on increasing participation in debate and deliberation on
issues of public policy, and in particular to look for ways to encourage the
development of consensus where possible. If you do manage to achieve a
consensus of a majority of the electorate after deliberation on an issue, or
even better several issues, then not only is it bound to have an impact on
decisions about those individual issues, but you might also see the system
start to evolve towards accepting more direct democracy, as you demonstrate
that the risk of its failure is not as great as many now believe.

I think many of us in this forum would support that programme of action, not
because we believe in direct democracy, but because we see that sort of
engagement revitalising representative democracy. Can we reach a consensus on
what to do next, even if we disagree about where we think it will lead?

From: paul canning Date: 2008 Mar 10 13:37 UTC Short link

Re: comments issues with BBC blogs

My point really ended up in the comments on the blogs rather than the body, so
I'll reiterate it here.

From: Ella Taylor-Smith Date: 2008 Mar 10 13:51 UTC Short link

Hi,
and on the topic of media + community websites:
Glasgow's Evening Times has set up 12 mini community sites:
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/features/display.var.2100544.0.0.php

"Our 12 special Glasgow mini-sites have been swamped with pictures,
comments, and notices from residents, community groups and ex-pats from
all over the world.
We launched the first phase of our ambitious plans to create a network
of 80 ultra-local websites, covering every major district of the city,
on Monday.
Within 72 hours, 75,000 hits were logged as users visited on to find out
what was happening in their neighbourhood."

(not really working in IE by the way)

Looks like there really is a market for this sort of thing and a trusted
brand is helpful.
-Ella
Ella Taylor-Smith

International Teledemocracy Centre
Napier University
10 Colinton Road
Edinburgh, EH10 5DT

Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
Email: <email obscured>

http://itc.napier.ac.uk




This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not be read,
copied or disclosed to anyone else outwith the University without the
permission of the sender.
It is your responsibility to ensure that this message and any attachments are
scanned for viruses or other defects. Napier University does not accept
liability for any loss
or damage which may result from this email or any attachment, or for errors or
omissions arising after it was sent. Email is not a secure medium. Email
entering the
University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering by the
University.

From: Tom Steinberg Date: 2008 Mar 12 12:07 UTC Short link

Splendid - I wonder if someone could add them to www.GroupsNearYou.com ? :)

Tom

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Taylor-Smith, Ella

<email obscured>> wrote:
> Hi,
>  and on the topic of media + community websites:
>  Glasgow's Evening Times has set up 12 mini community sites:
>  http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/features/display.var.2100544.0.0.php
>
>  "Our 12 special Glasgow mini-sites have been swamped with pictures,
>  comments, and notices from residents, community groups and ex-pats from
>  all over the world.
>  We launched the first phase of our ambitious plans to create a network
>  of 80 ultra-local websites, covering every major district of the city,
>  on Monday.
>  Within 72 hours, 75,000 hits were logged as users visited on to find out
>  what was happening in their neighbourhood."
>
>  (not really working in IE by the way)
>
>  Looks like there really is a market for this sort of thing and a trusted
>  brand is helpful.
>  -Ella
>  Ella Taylor-Smith
>
>  International Teledemocracy Centre
>  Napier University
>  10 Colinton Road
>  Edinburgh, EH10 5DT
>
>  Telephone: +44 (0) 131 455 2392  Fax:  +44 (0) 131 455 2282
>  Email: <email obscured>
>
>  http://itc.napier.ac.uk
>
>
>
>
>  This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not be read,
copied or disclosed to anyone else outwith the University without the
permission of the sender.
>  It is your responsibility to ensure that this message and any attachments
are scanned for viruses or other defects. Napier University does not accept
liability for any loss
>  or damage which may result from this email or any attachment, or for errors
or omissions arising after it was sent. Email is not a secure medium. Email
entering the
>  University's system is subject to routine monitoring and filtering by the
University.
>
>  Member profile for Ella Taylor-Smith:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/smithella
>
>
>  -----------------------------------------
>
>  Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>  http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>
>  Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with all posts
on this topic here:
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>
>  For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>  email <email obscured>
>  with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
>  UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online -
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>



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07811 082158
www.FixMyStreet.com

From: Tom Steinberg Date: 2008 Apr 11 17:03 UTC Short link

Hi All,

Just thought you might like to know that my FOI request about the cost
of Action Network has been answered in full:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bbc_action_network_cost

all the best,

Tom

On 27/02/2008, Pete Thomson <email obscured>> wrote:
> Roy wrote:
>
>  > With e-democracy we could have real direct democracy, if we wished to have
>  > it. As a complete system designed from scratch, it has never been tried,
so all
>  > statements regarding its efficacy are merely conjecture.
>
>
> Precisely. Even the first sentence in that quote is merely conjecture - it
has never been demonstrated that such a system is workable.
>
>  Obviously it's unlikely that those who hold power (and responsibility) under
the present system will support designing and testing such an alternative.
Apart from self-interest, they can advance perfectly good reasons for opposing
it - like the risk that it would collapse into chaos.
>
>  If you believe in direct democracy, then one more feasible route towards it
might be to work on increasing participation in debate and deliberation on
issues of public policy, and in particular to look for ways to encourage the
development of consensus where possible. If you do manage to achieve a
consensus of a majority of the electorate after deliberation on an issue, or
even better several issues, then not only is it bound to have an impact on
decisions about those individual issues, but you might also see the system
start to evolve towards accepting more direct democracy, as you demonstrate
that the risk of its failure is not as great as many now believe.
>
>  I think many of us in this forum would support that programme of action, not
because we believe in direct democracy, but because we see that sort of
engagement revitalising representative democracy. Can we reach a consensus on
what to do next, even if we disagree about where we think it will lead?

From: Taffd Date: 2008 Apr 11 17:39 UTC Short link

Hi All,

  Regarding Pete Thompson's response about direct democracy, I have to say his
argument has merit.
  I personally, would like to see aspects of DD inserted into our
representative democracy.

  The business of governance needs to continue and it is apparent that most
people do not want to bother with it on a daily basis.

  There are issues however, such as the 'Lisbon Treaty', where the people might
want a say.

  I have posted an e-petition at the Downing St. website. It reads as follows:-

  "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Create legislation to
oblige elected representatives, at all levels of government, to advocate the
majority opinion of their constituents, where their constituents can
demonstrate a majority of 75%.

  details
  Mp's, local councillors etc, are elected to make decisions on behalf of their
constituents. Occasionally however, issues arise, of such import, that the
electorate considers it essential that their views be acted upon. In order to
enhance the democratic process, where an overwhelming majority can be
determined, in the order of 75%, the representative should be obliged to be an
advocate of and for that majority opinion and vote accordingly."

  If you think this petition has merit, you can view it or add your name by
visiting

  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Majority-Opinion/

  Best Regards

  Roy Daine

Tom Steinberg <email obscured>> wrote:
  Hi All,

Just thought you might like to know that my FOI request about the cost
of Action Network has been answered in full:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bbc_action_network_cost

all the best,

Tom

On 27/02/2008, Pete Thomson
wrote:
> Roy wrote:
>
> > With e-democracy we could have real direct democracy, if we wished to have
> > it. As a complete system designed from scratch, it has never been tried, so
all
> > statements regarding its efficacy are merely conjecture.
>
>
> Precisely. Even the first sentence in that quote is merely conjecture - it
has never been demonstrated that such a system is workable.
>
> Obviously it's unlikely that those who hold power (and responsibility) under
the present system will support designing and testing such an alternative.
Apart from self-interest, they can advance perfectly good reasons for opposing
it - like the risk that it would collapse into chaos.
>
> If you believe in direct democracy, then one more feasible route towards it
might be to work on increasing participation in debate and deliberation on
issues of public policy, and in particular to look for ways to encourage the
development of consensus where possible. If you do manage to achieve a
consensus of a majority of the electorate after deliberation on an issue, or
even better several issues, then not only is it bound to have an impact on
decisions about those individual issues, but you might also see the system
start to evolve towards accepting more direct democracy, as you demonstrate
that the risk of its failure is not as great as many now believe.
>
> I think many of us in this forum would support that programme of action, not
because we believe in direct democracy, but because we see that sort of
engagement revitalising representative democracy. Can we reach a consensus on
what to do next, even if we disagree about where we think it will lead?

From: David Wilcox Date: 2008 Apr 21 22:40 UTC Short link

Further thoughts - could the BBC co-design its plans with community
media interests and other before putting them to the BBC Trust?

http://tinyurl.com/3t8dvc

Stephen Coleman has already offered to host a forum, during his
Bristol blogging stint.

"The BBC Trust certainly ought to connect with the e-democracy
community. I’m sure that there’s much valuable advice that you and
others could offer them. The Centre for Digital Citizenship at Leeds
University would be happy to set up a forum for such an exchange of
views. Let’s see if we can take this forward in a way that will help
the BBC to make the best possible plans."

David


On 11 Apr 2008, at 18:39, ROY DAINE wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>  Regarding Pete Thompson's response about direct democracy, I have
> to say his argument has merit.
>  I personally, would like to see aspects of DD inserted into our
> representative democracy.
>
>  The business of governance needs to continue and it is apparent
> that most people do not want to bother with it on a daily basis.
>
>  There are issues however, such as the 'Lisbon Treaty', where the
> people might want a say.
>
>  I have posted an e-petition at the Downing St. website. It reads as
> follows:-
>
>  "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Create
> legislation to oblige elected representatives, at all levels of
> government, to advocate the majority opinion of their constituents,
> where their constituents can demonstrate a majority of 75%.
>
>  details
>  Mp's, local councillors etc, are elected to make decisions on
> behalf of their constituents. Occasionally however, issues arise, of
> such import, that the electorate considers it essential that their
> views be acted upon. In order to enhance the democratic process,
> where an overwhelming majority can be determined, in the order of
> 75%, the representative should be obliged to be an advocate of and
> for that majority opinion and vote accordingly."
>
>  If you think this petition has merit, you can view it or add your
> name by visiting
>
>  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Majority-Opinion/
>
>  Best Regards
>
>  Roy Daine
>
> Tom Steinberg <email obscured>> wrote:
>  Hi All,
>
> Just thought you might like to know that my FOI request about the cost
> of Action Network has been answered in full:
>
> http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bbc_action_network_cost
>
> all the best,
>
> Tom
>
> On 27/02/2008, Pete Thomson
> wrote:
>> Roy wrote:
>>
>>> With e-democracy we could have real direct democracy, if we wished
>>> to have
>>> it. As a complete system designed from scratch, it has never been
>>> tried, so all
>>> statements regarding its efficacy are merely conjecture.
>>
>>
>> Precisely. Even the first sentence in that quote is merely
>> conjecture - it has never been demonstrated that such a system is
>> workable.
>>
>> Obviously it's unlikely that those who hold power (and
>> responsibility) under the present system will support designing and
>> testing such an alternative. Apart from self-interest, they can
>> advance perfectly good reasons for opposing it - like the risk that
>> it would collapse into chaos.
>>
>> If you believe in direct democracy, then one more feasible route
>> towards it might be to work on increasing participation in debate
>> and deliberation on issues of public policy, and in particular to
>> look for ways to encourage the development of consensus where
>> possible. If you do manage to achieve a consensus of a majority of
>> the electorate after deliberation on an issue, or even better
>> several issues, then not only is it bound to have an impact on
>> decisions about those individual issues, but you might also see the
>> system start to evolve towards accepting more direct democracy, as
>> you demonstrate that the risk of its failure is not as great as
>> many now believe.
>>
>> I think many of us in this forum would support that programme of
>> action, not because we believe in direct democracy, but because we
>> see that sort of engagement revitalising representative democracy.
>> Can we reach a consensus on what to do next, even if we disagree
>> about where we think it will lead?
>>
>>
>>
>> Member profile for Pete Thomson:
>>
>> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/petethomson
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>> Group home for UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange:
>> http://groups.dowire.org/groups/ukie
>>
>> Replies go to members of UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange with
>> all posts on this topic here:
>>
>> http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/12RomF4trxYGx6rxpk9TPh
>>
>>
>> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
>> email <email obscured>
>> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>>
>> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
>> - http://dowire.org.
>>
>
>
> --
> Director, mySociety
> 07811 082158
> Newest site: www.WhatDoTheyKnow.com
>
> Member profile for Tom Steinberg:
> http://groups.dowire.org/contacts/tomsteinberg
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
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>
> For digest version or to leave UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange,
> email <email obscured>
> with "digest on" or "unsubscribe" in the *subject*.
>
> UK and Ireland E-Democracy Exchange is hosted by Democracies Online
> - http://dowire.org.
>
>
>
> Enhance democracy. Make your views known on every issue that
> concerns you.
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>
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
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